The End of Faith by Sam Harris

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I recently heard an interview with Mr. Harris, the author or "The End of Faith" and thought he made some very good points.

Here is the first paragraph from his website:
This important and timely book delivers a startling analysis of the clash of faith and reason in the modern world. The End of Faith provides a harrowing glimpse of mankind's willingness to suspend reason in favor of religious beliefs, even when these beliefs inspire the worst of human atrocities. Harris argues that in the presence of weapons of mass destruction, we can no longer expect to survive our religious differences indefinitely. Most controversially, he maintains that "moderation" in religion poses considerable dangers of its own: as the accommodation we have made to religious faith in our society now blinds us to the role that faith plays in perpetuating human conflict. While warning against the encroachment of organized religion into world politics, Harris draws on insights from neuroscience, philosophy, and Eastern mysticism in an attempt to provide a truly modern foundation for our ethics and our search for spiritual experience.

The website is: www.samharris.org

He certainly made me rethink my thoughts about the Bible and the Koran. I have to warn the more religious folks here that he really challenges your beliefs (whatever they are), and may make you question what you thought you already knew.

Anyone read the book? What did you think?

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Re: The End of Faith by Sam Harris

Green Witch wrote:

I recently heard an interview with Mr. Harris, the author or "The End of Faith" and thought he made some very good points.

Here is the first paragraph from his website:
This important and timely book delivers a startling analysis of the clash of faith and reason in the modern world. The End of Faith provides a harrowing glimpse of mankind's willingness to suspend reason in favor of religious beliefs, even when these beliefs inspire the worst of human atrocities. Harris argues that in the presence of weapons of mass destruction, we can no longer expect to survive our religious differences indefinitely. Most controversially, he maintains that "moderation" in religion poses considerable dangers of its own: as the accommodation we have made to religious faith in our society now blinds us to the role that faith plays in perpetuating human conflict. While warning against the encroachment of organized religion into world politics, Harris draws on insights from neuroscience, philosophy, and Eastern mysticism in an attempt to provide a truly modern foundation for our ethics and our search for spiritual experience.

The website is: www.samharris.org

He certainly made me rethink my thoughts about the Bible and the Koran. I have to warn the more religious folks here that he really challenges your beliefs (whatever they are), and may make you question what you thought you already knew.

Anyone read the book? What did you think?

Harris is not the first and won't be the last who thinks they can bury religious faith.

A few years from now, his book will be all but forgotten and more people than have ever read his book will begin believing each and every year.

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Interesting to know somebody is making money out of what some of us have been saying here over the last few years.

Unfortunately real life is correct .There's one born every minute !

Our innate tendencies to tribalism as displayed by the higher primates, together with our cognitive urge to seek explanation in terms of "control" constantly sustains the concept of "the Big Controller" to rationalize our parochial existence.

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I don't think he is going to "bury" religious faith. Actually, I think the fanatics are going to be the dominant force on this planet until they get to the point they are just throwing rocks at each other and preaching in caves.

I still have spiritual beliefs after hearing his ideas, I just think he does a very good job of pointing out how absurd and antiquated some religious thinking is. I think he is also correct that our religious text books are not all full of love and peace as people claim and all religions do not boil down to the same message of "love your neighbor" - just the opposite.

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Yes, I think we are certainly seeing one of those periods of resurgence of religious fanaticism...

Off to look at the site.

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I think that what we are seeing today, has been developing for some time, since the 1960's. I think that the first glimpse of the tendency of people to turn away from rationality towards mysticism was demonstrated during the Vietnam war, when young people, insecure and afraid of their futures, embraced mystical groups, such as the hare krishnas and the moonies.

The explosion of technology, the change in role expectations over the last few decades, has left many people frightened and uncertain. In earlier times, life might have been harder, but expectations of behavior were clearer.

This situation has not escaped the notice of the more fundamentalist (and even some of the more mainstream) churches. They are using this societal change, with its confusions, to bring more people into their flocks, to "spread the word", and to gain more power and control for themselves.

The reason for this is that I believe that as a counter to the complexities of the world, many people are turning to religion for direction. It does not take much thought or rational introspection to parrot a predigested life script, as put forth by the Bible.One does not have to search for answers, or go through agonizing intellectual growth. The person who accepts what is taught in his religion, without question, is able to find automatic solace and comfort, but at what cost?

Quote:

Anyone read the book? What did you think?

Green Witch- I haven't, but I just put a hold on a copy in my library. When I have read it, I will get back. Sounds very interesting.

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Could someone, anyone please, please, please tell me WHY do some non-believers insist on trying to tell believers that our beliefs are not about what we think they are?

How can some non-believers think they qualify to tell a believer what is and what isn't in our Bible?

How can some non-believers think they qualify to tell us what God is and what God isn't?

All we want to do is worship our Lord and follow His teachings. I don't want to hurt anybody. I help people. I love people. Why are there those that want to take away my most sacred and deepest feelings?

If some don't want to believe, fine, don't. But someone please tell me why anyone would want to make God into something He is not for us?

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Momma Angel, I think I can ask people of religion the same thing. I did not post this as an attack on anyone's belief system. However, in the last few years I have felt threatened by religious people. I see my own government dictating their religious beliefs into laws that I will have to obey. I see religious people strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing up themselves and others. I've heard people preach that we do not have to take care of the environment because "God will lift up the good people from this earth". I find this frightening. I feel far more judged by those who follow a god (any god) than I would ever think to judge them.

I sometimes watch the Trinity Network and I hear little in the way of love and much in the way of "hate the other" or "think like us or be damned". Fanatics scare me - any fanatic.

M.A.,I don't think you are a bad or ignorant person because of your beliefs and I believe you want to do good in this world. I'm looking at a bigger picture, beyond the individual and into the world as a whole. I think religion has done more harm than good. Missionary work was the equal of cultural genocide. Most wars have had something to do with religion or religion was used to justify them.

I think you might want to take a look at this book. I do not think it will rock you from your faith, but it might make you see it in a new light. Hearing Mr. Harris speak did not stop me from believing in a spiritual existence, but it did make me wonder why people blindly follow text without examining it more closely.

I think he makes a very good point about people who "cherry pick" from religious text about what they will or won't believe, although God is thought to have written all of it. I see "cherry picking" as hypocrisy. All my Catholic friends use birth control, all my Jewish friends eat pork. The Bible is very much in favor of slavery - I don't think any Christian would want to slavery make a come back just because it is in the the Bible, but of course if God said it is OK - why not? I think Mr. Harris does a good job of calling upon people to examine their beliefs and question their sources. Blind faith can kill.

MA- I wish you the blessings of the Goddess and may you find joy in all her earthly gifts. GW

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Green Witch,

I was not really speaking to anyone in particular about my post.

Just a few comments I have. Yes, there are some that say they are Christian and use God as an excuse for their violence. But, not all Christians are like that.

Fanatics scare me too! We are not supposed to be out there beating people over the head with our beliefs. That chases more people away from God I think than the devil himself. I abhor that kind of Christianity.

I do not have blind faith on a whole. I have had experiences that I know were from God. Now, don't go getting scared here. Most people would call them coincidences but well, when it's from God, you just know.

Cherry pickers? Oh yeah, don't like them much either.

Okay, here's where I really have a comment. You seem to be like quite a few of the non-believers I have run into on these threads. Using only the OT and its laws.

The OT is only a part of the character of God. Just as in reading any book, you have to read from beginning to end to get the whole story.

Oh, and what Goddess are you speaking of if you don't mind my asking?

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bookmarking

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Momma Angel

Although I have not read the book, the gist of Harris's argument is clear...what appears to be beneficial at the individual level is pernicious at the level of society, especially one with access to such destructive weapons. Whether you go for this argument or not, the stakes are too high not to take it seriously.

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Momma Angel

Although I have not read the book, the gist of Harris's argument is clear...what appears to be beneficial at the individual level is (as History constantly shows) pernicious at the level of society, especially one with access to such destructive weapons. Whether you go for this argument or not, the stakes are too high not to take it seriously.

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fresco wrote:

Momma Angel

Although I have not read the book, the gist of Harris's argument is clear...what appears to be beneficial at the individual level is (as History constantly shows) pernicious at the level of society, especially one with access to such destructive weapons. Whether you go for this argument or not, the stakes are too high not to take it seriously.

fresco,

So, let's see if I have this right, ok? Isn't this kind of like you telling me (generalization, didn't mean you and me literally) what I can and can't practice as my religion because you may think it's not beneficial to society?

What's the difference between me wanting to stop you from taking God out of the Pledge of Allegiance, money, etc.?

So, if we nip Christianity in the bud, so to speak, we won't have to worry about society?

What about if we nip godlessness in the bud and we won't have to worry about society?

Isn't this the reason for religious freedom? I get to practice mine if I want and you don't have to practice any religion if you don't want?

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It still all comes down to what mere mortal man says instead of what God says. I will choose God anyday!

Also, I do agree that there are some that take religion to the most heinous of extremes, but, this is not the MAJORITY! It seems the "one bad apple SPOILS the whole barrell" is well in place in this world IMO.

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Momma Angel,

"Freedom of the individual" is always relative to its effect on others and depends on historical context. If we take an extreme aspect of the argument, that faith is is a "drug" which has effects ranging from the soporiphic, through the euphoric to the manic, the question for society is whether to regulate the usage given that far more dangerous results can occur in the modern era relative to previous times.

Whether or not you agree with the drug analogy for you personally, you have already acknowledged the possibilities of "mania" in the form of religious fanaticism in others. Now it may be that you attempt to "explain" such mania as a misconception on their part of the entry requirements for "the celestial life" but your own acceptance of any form of "theistic reality" deflates any case you may have against the fanatic's particular version of it.

As I have said before, I am under no illusion that believers will cease to believe on the strength of Harris's powerful logic. Dawkins view of religion as a "cognitive virus" together with the believer's ultimate answer to all catastophes that "God moves in mysterious ways" are each sufficient to account for the continuance of belief.

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fresco,

Regulate the usage? Isn't this the same thing as saying what you can and can't believe?

And I think the drug analogy may fit a very, very, small portion of believers. And again, it seems those are the ones that are focused upon. Rarely, do you hear of the Christians that really do live their lives as Christians. It's always the ones that don't that you hear of. Of course, it's usually the non-believers (some, not all) that are pointing out and trying to tell Christians that they are not following their faith.

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Momma Angel,

Of course we cannot ban "personal belief" but we could for a start, as others have suggested, remove all vestiges of theistic belief systems from the mechanisms of state such as government, the legislature or the military. And instead of simply removing "theistic religion" from the educational curriculum, aspects of it could be actively contrasted with a rational humanism.

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fresco wrote:

Momma Angel,

Of course we cannot ban "personal belief" but we could for a start, as others have suggested, remove all vestiges of theistic belief systems from the mechanisms of state such as government, the legislature or the military. And instead of simply removing "theistic religion" from the educational curriculum, aspects of it could be actively contrasted with a rational humanism.

fresco,

But, since everyone votes their conscience and for some their religious beliefs are part of that process, removing any of it is not going to be done easily. To remove God from anything in my life, and I do mean anything, is not something I will just let happen.

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Momma Angel wrote:

But, since everyone votes their conscience and for some their religious beliefs are part of that process, removing any of it is not going to be done easily. To remove God from anything in my life, and I do mean anything, is not something I will just let happen.

This is where you need to learn the difference between removing God from your life and removing religion from the public sector. Sometimes I think that the only way to get you to see the benefit of this is to have ayatollah as president.

The concept is simple. If it is possible for you to force your stuff on others then it is also possible for others to force theirs on you should they come to power. This is not about king of the hill.

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The End of Faith by Sam Harris

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