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A Time to Kill Scenario

 
 
AliceInWonderland
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2005 08:41 am
Joe - You need to brush up on the way our system of justice was set up. Jury nullification was set up as a RIGHT and a DUTY of juries, not to promote lawlessness or purgery as you said, but to ensure that lawmakers are held accountable by the people. In fact, until relatively recently, jury nullification was part of the instructions to juries. It was set up that way and has been repeatedly reaffirmed by the Supreme Court, although the court has also said that a trial judge has no obligation to inform jurors of the right to nullify.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2005 08:50 am
AliceInWonderland wrote:
Joe - You need to brush up on the way our system of justice was set up.

I'm fairly comfortable with the level of my knowledge in this area.

AliceInWonderland wrote:
Jury nullification was set up as a RIGHT and a DUTY of juries, not to promote lawlessness or purgery as you said, but to ensure that lawmakers are held accountable by the people.

Identify your source for this claim.

AliceInWonderland wrote:
In fact, until relatively recently, jury nullification was part of the instructions to juries.

Identify your source for this claim.

AliceInWonderland wrote:
It was set up that way and has been repeatedly reaffirmed by the Supreme Court...

Repeatedly? Identify one case.

AliceInWonderland wrote:
...although the court has also said that a trial judge has no obligation to inform jurors of the right to nullify.

Identify the case in which the Supreme Court held this.
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AliceInWonderland
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2005 09:21 am
Here's one source: FIJA

Here's another:Military Law Review


Most comprehensive articl: Prof. James Joseph Duane

1895 decision of Sparf vs U.S. (156 US 51): Judge does not have to inform jury of right of nullification

Affirmed, US Court of Appeals, District of Maryland: US vs Moylan, 417 F 2d 1002, 1006 (1969)

Affirmed, US Supreme Court: US vs Dougherty, 473 F 2d 1113, 1139 (1972)

Edited to add a source inadvertently left out.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2005 09:59 am
AliceInWonderland wrote:
Here's one source: FIJA

Your link doesn't work.

AliceInWonderland wrote:
Here's another:Military Law Review

This article argues for a change in the law. But, as the author himself admits:
    The Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces (CAAF) directly addressed the issue of jury nullification for the first time in United States v. Hardy. In Hardy, counsel requested instructions at trial similar to those requested in the latter scenario above. The CAAF held that the military judge properly refused the trial counsel's request to direct the panel to return a verdict of guilty. The CAAF also stated, however, that [b]no right of jury nullification exists[/b]; it held that the military judge did not err in declining to give a nullification instruction requested by the defense.
(emphasis added)

AliceInWonderland wrote:
Most comprehensive articl: Prof. James Joseph Duane

That's the same article that you linked above.

AliceInWonderland wrote:
1895 decision of Sparf vs U.S. (156 US 51): Judge does not have to inform jury of right of nullification

That's not what the court held. The court held that there was no right of nullification at all. As the majority opinion states:
    Public and private safety alike would be in peril if the principle be established that juries in criminal cases may, of right, disregard the law as expounded to them by the court, and become a law unto themselves. Under such a system, the principal function of the judge would be to preside and keep order while jurymen, untrained in the law, would determine questions affecting life, liberty, or property according to such legal principles as, in their judgment, were applicable to the particular case being tried.
Source.

AliceInWonderland wrote:
Affirmed, US Court of Appeals, District of Maryland: US vs Moylan, 417 F 2d 1002, 1006 (1969)

Affirmed, US Supreme Court: US vs Dougherty, 473 F 2d 1113, 1139 (1972)

These are lower court cases, not supreme court cases.
0 Replies
 
CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2005 10:28 am
joefromchicago wrote:

Your talk of "justice" is just so much rubbish. When you are chosen to serve on a jury, you are required to take an oath. For you, CerealKiller, the Rhode Island (.pdf file) juror's oath is this:
    You swear (or, affirm) that you will well and truly try and true deliverance make between the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations and the prisoner (or, defendant) at the bar according to law and the evidence given you: So help you God.
In Michigan, it looks like this:
    Does each of you solemnly swear or affirm that, in this case now before the court, you will justly decide the questions submitted to you, that, unless you are discharged by the court from further deliberation, you will render a true verdict, and that you will render your verdict only on the evidence introduced and in accordance with the instructions of the court, so help you God?
Other states have oaths that are similar. All the oaths require jurors to render a verdict according to the law. Note, that doesn't mean the juror should render a verdict according to the law as he wishes it was, but as the law actually is. Any deviation from that duty is a breach of the juror's oath; it is an illegal and lawless act.


I care as much about oaths as judges and lawyers care about the truth.

joefromchicago wrote:

I'm not sure how anyone can defend such an act on the grounds that it constitutes "justice."


I can. I love when a good citizen hurts or kills a rapist, murderer, child molester, or terrorist. I say F--- the law and do what's right.

joefromchicago wrote:

If a juror, after being empanelled, suddenly realizes that he or she cannot render a verdict according to the law and the evidence, then that juror's duty is clear: s/he must inform the judge and resign from the jury.


In a perfect world where honor and integrity mean something maybe, but that hardly describes our legal system. Our system is all about the lawyering. Who puts on the best show. What kind of deal can be made in the hallway. Don't expect jurors to be pristine when nobody else is.

joefromchicago wrote:

Staying on the jury just so that one can render a verdict that contradicts the law is not only illegal, it is immoral. One cannot serve the cause of justice by committing an unjust act.


What's really wrong is that jurors are put in the position to be judges in the first place.

If judges actually judged, instead of referee the lawyering...jurors wouldn't be necessary. Hell, they took an oath to uphold the law. Let them earn their money and make the final decision. Instead they instruct the jurors on the do's and don't's of how to deliberate.
0 Replies
 
AliceInWonderland
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2005 10:42 am
Oops, here's the right link:

Prof. James Joseph Duane

Try this one: FIJA
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2005 10:55 am
joefromchicago wrote:
CerealKiller wrote:
The law is one thing, justice is another. I would certainly not be above circumventing the law for what I consider justice. Maybe I've seen too many Charles Bronson movies.

Your talk of "justice" is just so much rubbish.


counselor, is this also "rubbish?"

Quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2005 11:14 am
CerealKiller wrote:
I care as much about oaths as judges and lawyers care about the truth.

What about lying? Are you ok with that?

CerealKiller wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:

I'm not sure how anyone can defend such an act on the grounds that it constitutes "justice."


I can. I love when a good citizen hurts or kills a rapist, murderer, child molester, or terrorist. I say F--- the law and do what's right.

Spoken like a true zealot.

CerealKiller wrote:
In a perfect world where honor and integrity mean something maybe, but that hardly describes our legal system. Our system is all about the lawyering. Who puts on the best show. What kind of deal can be made in the hallway. Don't expect jurors to be pristine when nobody else is.

You know nothing about the legal system.

CerealKiller wrote:
What's really wrong is that jurors are put in the position to be judges in the first place.

If judges actually judged, instead of referee the lawyering...jurors wouldn't be necessary. Hell, they took an oath to uphold the law. Let them earn their money and make the final decision. Instead they instruct the jurors on the do's and don't's of how to deliberate.

And it's clear you know nothing about trials.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2005 11:15 am
AliceInWonderland wrote:
Oops, here's the right link:

Prof. James Joseph Duane

Try this one: FIJA

The Duane article is rather lengthy. I will need some time before I can respond.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2005 11:17 am
yitwail wrote:
counselor, is this also "rubbish?"

First of all, there's no need to call me "counselor." I don't work in a high school. Secondly, I don't think your quotation of the preamble to the constitution is rubbish; I just don't understand why you thought it was necessary to bring it to my attention.
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Oct, 2005 07:45 am
joefromchicago wrote:
yitwail wrote:
counselor, is this also "rubbish?"

First of all, there's no need to call me "counselor." I don't work in a high school. Secondly, I don't think your quotation of the preamble to the constitution is rubbish; I just don't understand why you thought it was necessary to bring it to my attention.


joe, i understood you to be an attorney and that attorneys are customarily addressed as counselor in the courtroom. since legal matters were being discussed, it seemed appropriate to adopt this custom.

as to the Preamble, i was mainly trying to ascertain if you thought the concept of justice itself is rubbish, or just CerealKiller's interpretation of the concept.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Oct, 2005 08:42 am
yitwail wrote:
joe, i understood you to be an attorney and that attorneys are customarily addressed as counselor in the courtroom. since legal matters were being discussed, it seemed appropriate to adopt this custom.

I am an attorney, but the only place that attorneys are called "counselor" is on tv and in the movies. Attorneys are called "counsel" in the courtroom.

yitwail wrote:
as to the Preamble, i was mainly trying to ascertain if you thought the concept of justice itself is rubbish, or just CerealKiller's interpretation of the concept.

The latter.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Oct, 2005 08:58 am
AliceInWonderland wrote:
Oops, here's the right link:

Prof. James Joseph Duane

Try this one: FIJA

It seems that Duane's main argument is that the jury has the power to nullify. I don't dispute this. But then that's a bit like saying that a person has the power to murder someone else. No doubt a jury is able to disregard the judge's instructions and render a verdict that contradicts the law. Indeed, in the American justice system, if a jury acquits a guilty defendant, then there is no appeal of its verdict, so there is no chance for the state to erase the results of the jury's nullification. Saying, then, that the jury has the power to nullify isn't saying anything new. It also isn't saying anything worthwhile.

Duane further suggests that courts should also tell juries that they have the power to nullify, but he lacks any kind of justification for that proposal. A jury should be instructed on nullifcation only if it has the right to nullify. If the jury acts lawlessly when it nullifies, however, it would seem rather odd to tell it that it nevertheless has the power to act lawlessly, just as it would be odd for a law against murder to remind people that, although it is unlawful, they nevertheless can kill their fellow citizens.

It should be added that proponents of jury nullification (including, it appears, Duane) think that it only works in favor of criminal defendants. But jury nullification works both ways: a jury can just as easily convict an innocent man as it can acquit a guilty one. In the "Time to Kill" hypothetical, I wonder how many of the participants here would agree with jury nullification if the evidence showed that the defendant was unquestionably innocent, yet the jury decided that it wanted to punish him anyway and rendered a guilty verdict that ignored both the law and the facts.
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AliceInWonderland
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Oct, 2005 09:58 am
Should we ere on the side of innocence? True, if a jury nullifies in favor of the defendant, there is no recourse for the state. If the jury nullifies in favor of the state, there is recourse built in to the system. Provided it is not abused, jury nullification, or the threat thereof can be an effective means of preventing prosectution of unjust laws. If there is bad law on the books, should the jury still convict? What about the run-away slave laws that existed? Should juries in good conscience have convicted? Juries are given a tremendous amount of power for this very reason - to prevent abuse of government power through bad law.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Oct, 2005 03:05 pm
joefromchicago wrote:

I am an attorney, but the only place that attorneys are called "counselor" is on tv and in the movies. Attorneys are called "counsel" in the courtroom.


ah, not only am i not an attorney, i've never been a defendant, witness, or juror, and i don't even read legal thrillers, a la Gresham or Turow. thanks for clearing up a misconception.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2005 07:53 am
AliceInWonderland wrote:
Should we ere on the side of innocence?

Depends on what you mean by "innocence." If you are asking if we should err on the side of those who are truly innocent, as established both by the facts and the law, then I would agree. But if you are asking if we should err on the side of vigilante justice, in whatever form, then I would strongly disagree.

AliceInWonderland wrote:
True, if a jury nullifies in favor of the defendant, there is no recourse for the state. If the jury nullifies in favor of the state, there is recourse built in to the system. Provided it is not abused, jury nullification, or the threat thereof can be an effective means of preventing prosectution of unjust laws. If there is bad law on the books, should the jury still convict?

It seems remarkable to me that many of the most vocal critics of "judicial activism" are some of the same people who applaud jury nullification. Somehow, a judge ignoring the law is bad, but a jury ignoring the law is good. Quelle logique! The proper remedy for bad laws, however, is the same in both cases: legislative action.

AliceInWonderland wrote:
What about the run-away slave laws that existed? Should juries in good conscience have convicted? Juries are given a tremendous amount of power for this very reason - to prevent abuse of government power through bad law.

Anyone who, in good conscience, could not have returned a runaway slave to his/her master should have disqualified himself from jury service. In contrast, anyone who takes an oath to obey the law with the intention of breaking the law is a perjurer and a common criminal.
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AliceInWonderland
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Oct, 2005 11:00 am
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. While, of course, changing the law is the solution for the long term, it certainly doesn't do much for the folks prosecuted under bad law.
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ralpheb
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2005 12:55 am
I think the main argument is whether the killer murdered the rapist as soon as he found out, or if he waited a period of time.
If the prosecution could not PROVE premeditation, then there would be no choice but to choose not guilty.
On the other hand, if he kills the rapist after the rapist has been found not guilty, then we would have other issues to contend with.
Personally, if some one rapes my daughter, they would have to find his charred remains after I made him die a slow agaonizing death. Would I care at that point if I was convicted? Hell no!
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Oct, 2005 06:38 am
ralpheb, you've brought a tear to my eye. Those last lines sound just like my daddy.
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CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Oct, 2005 12:44 am
joefromchicago wrote:

What about lying? Are you ok with that?"


If my lie can afford the victim and her family a little vengeance, I can live with that.

Following the law in this instance only victimzes her and her family again.

Sometimes I think in the critical inch it's better to do the wrong thing for the right reason.

Not trying to justify it...just saying what I would do assuming I could perform the necessary legal gymnastics.

joefromchicago wrote:

Spoken like a true zealot.


A rapist is dead. That's one for the zealots. Go team.

joefromchicago wrote:

You know nothing about the legal system.


I know prosecutors vigorously prosecute defendants they don't always believe to be guilty in order to get a conviction.

I know defense attorneys vigorously defend defendants they don't always believe to be not guilty in order to set them free.

How noble.

joefromchicago wrote:

And it's clear you know nothing about trials.


Rather ironic that has never stopped anyone from serving on a jury, even myself.
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