subculture of one
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Oct, 2005 03:27 pm
Ok, sorry to jump in here, but I would like to throw more light...

Anatta- Pali for no 'self'
Anatman- Sanskrit for no 'self'

This concept is a direct (pretty much) repsponse to the Hindu concept of the Atman which originates and develops in the Vedanta period (in the writing of the Upanishads mainly). to sum up, the Upanishads state that all of existence is basically Maya (illusion), though 'outside' of this is 'Brahman' which we can say is the 'ultimate, permanent, nonpersonified, qualityless, power of the universe' Atman, or that which animates and gives rise to life is a part of Brahman and therefore eternal. Through meditation and Tapas (austerities) you can burn away illusion to reintegrate with brahman, this is Moksha or liberation.

Buddhism rejects the idea that there is a 'permanent' or 'unchanging' essence. Therefore they say that "There is no ATMAN' nothing is eternal.

Buddhism says that there are 3 marks of reality: Anatman- no self
Anitya- change or deterioration
and Duhkha- suffering.

Since _nothing_ is permanent and everything changes and disintegrates, there can be no self which leaps this hurdle, therefore, you are in a state of mental anguish- suffering.

Buddhism says that the self does not travel from life to life, but something called the pancaskandhas (5 Heaps) or 5 aggregates do.
These are basically the results of all of your actions. The skandhas are
form, sensation, perception, mental formations, and consciousness.

You are a different person now than when you turned on the computer. Buddhism says that if there were an Atman you could never experience anything. The atman is eternal and therefore unchanging. Buddhism said that since you CAN experience and therefore become fundamentally different over the course of time, then there could be no atman.

No Self.

This is also sometimes called 'no ego' because there is n o ''ahamkara' or "I" thinker. who are you? Diffferent people call you different things. You are not any ONE thing. Names in Buddhism (until you get far enough along) are only place holders and basically worthless. No single part of you is really YOU. There is no you.... See Milindapanha (Questions of king Milinda for more on this name idea.)

Sorry to rant on so.

Sub
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Oct, 2005 03:43 pm
Thank you fresco and subculture.

Very helpful.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 12:09 am
I have a question.

Okay......I start to get really excited, I can feel my blood just pumping and as though a million thoughts are 'taking over my body'. Then I think "oh great, now you're getting excited, because you saw something that seems new!".....and then I feel disheartened....and then I think "just stop thinking about trivial crap!"...and then I know I'm resisting again....and on and on!!

My mind is a bloody mess. In the span of a few minutes of 'meditation' (I doubt I can call it that at this point) I go up and down and all around; excited, depressed, hot, cold, itchy, angry, etc.

HOw can "I" ever verify what "I" have accomplished?! There doesn't seem to be any rules here. I feel lost!! It seems good in a way, yet extremely uncomfortable in another. It's crumbly.

I feel somewhat ashamed and behind...as though I am a baby! I don't know what I am even looking for or what; I just know "I have to do this or go insane!" Nothing else 'does it'.

What is my question?! Well, I guess I need a tap in the right direction or something.

thanx
0 Replies
 
subculture of one
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 07:26 am
Now, when you say "I start to get really excited..." are you talking about 'while in meditation'? Or simply because of the new info presented here?

I'll address both (since I don't know which you mean Very Happy )

1) If you are meditating, it's _VERY_ natural to 'get fidgety' and whatnot, you need to (what certain meditative traditions call) 'calm the monkey of your mind'... Our minds are constantly moving, we are, by nature, dynamic critters, scurrying from one thing to the next. Society tells us tat if we are 'inactive' we are unproductive.... HOWEVER! What you are attempting isn't for society, it's for you. Look at meditation like weightlifting... If you want to become a weightlifter, you don't start by trying to clean & jerk 750 pounds... You start small and build your strength. Meditation requires you to train the mind. I've personally found that trying to clear my mind and count backwards from 10 to be good. You begin counting backwards, every time your mind wanders, or something other than the number filters into your head, start over. You will not likely get past 9 your first try or two. It takes a LOT of effort to be effortless! Very Happy

2) If you are responding to the new information you have learned, don't worry. You are not fundamentally different now than you were before learning this... Your understanding of certain things is different. Like learning a shortcut to work: "I had no idea there was a shortcut here... Why didn't I know about this before? How could I have NOT even looked for it?" and the like. Don't panic. It's there, now you know about it, use it! Worrying about questions that don't 'matter' (in the greater scheme of things, like 'how could I have not looked for this') is what the Buddha called a 'poisoned arrow' question.
If you are walking in the woods and someone shoots you with an arrow covered in poison, would you remove it and treat the wound? Or would you wonder: what bow shot this arrow, what color hair did the person shooting it have? What did they have for breakfast?" etc. Start from _HERE_ don't worry about 'before' and 'what if'... Not yet at least.

Technically in Buddhism 'I' can't accomplish anything... What has happened to us and what we have done, we see 'me' but Buddhism says that what you are seeing are the actions, the results of actions, and the outcomes of those results and actions. Again names are only convenient place-holders. Does that negate what 'you' have done? Not at all... Because ultimately what makes something you have done or accomplished 'matter' is HOW that accomplishment has affected you.

On a metaphysical level, you can't know that the past or the future exist, you only have the present... this exact moment. find balance within the moment and there you will acheive peace. :wink:

SO! If what you remember and think about what you have done fills you with joy, sadness, awe, etc. Those feelings are real, therefore your perception of the past event is 'real' therefore the events and acoomplishments are real.

Don't worry, many of us started out in this very manner!

Sub
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 09:14 am
flushd

In answer to your question..

When in your meditative mode try saying "IT is breathing...IT is sitting etc". Try to observe"it" without judgement.

For some the result has been to see "it" ask your question and for the question to dissipate.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 11:24 am
Go back and re-read the earlier post that described how to begin your meditation. Focus your mind on breathing, one breath at a time. Think, Will the intake of breath to fill the lungs. Hold, and then mindfully expel the air, and hold. This is to occupy your full attention and mind. When a cup is full there is no room for more.

SubC's post is on the money. Fresco's advice to deal with invading thoughts in an "non-judgemental" way is also useful. Our undisciplined minds left unbridled are constantly forming and pursuing thoughts. The self, the "I" is at the center of most, and arises from our attachments. Few can sit for the first time(s) without being overwhelmed by thoughts that might otherwise have gone un-noticed. Your task is to quell that cacophony.

When thoughts come during you meditation, don't indulge in a dialog with yourself, or spin out an idea. Just mentally acknowledge that a thought has crept in, then dismiss it by returning immediately to the discipline of controlling your breathing. The notion of counting, or counting your breaths, has some legitimacy but I believe that ultimately the act of counting is a mental distraction from the focus we are trying to achieve. Just focus your entire being onto drawing, holding and expelling your breath.

As you gain ascendancy over your "monkey-mind", the "I-self" will diminish. Those stray thoughts will come less often to interrupt your mental focus. You will find it easier to ignore them and return to your purpose. You will have begun to master your mind, the source of all projections, illusions, and, ultimately, suffering.

This advice applies both to the thought that forms itself into words, and that which expresses itself in raw emotion. Whilst in meditation you will find discomfort, and that is a thought that is distracting. Once you've begun to get the "hang" of dismissing interruptions (temptations to abandon the meditative discipline), you may feel "thrilled", or "happy". Those are also emotions to be dismissed. The pleasurable emotions may be even more dangerous to your practice than thoughts/emotions that are unpleasant, but they are just as destructive to achieving your goal.

For now let your "goal" be to sit that small half hour without moving about physically or mentally. It may sound impossible, its not and many have done this successfully. It will appear difficult, but throw away the idea of difficult and just think one breath and a time and you will eventually prevail.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 11:42 am
Thank you for the replies.
I'll give that a try. It will give it a try.

That helped a lot. I honestly appreciate the time taken to respond.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 11:49 am
Por nada. Really ... por nada!
0 Replies
 
subculture of one
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 12:28 pm
Y'know Ash, the line about 'acknowledge and dismiss the intrusive thought' is kind of like a metaphysical 'That's nice'. Smile

Intrusive though- look at what i can do!
mind- yeah, that's nice.

ignore the bully and they stop beating on you. Shocked
It's as if the act of identifying the intrusive thought and dwelling on it, gives its intrusive quality more weight!

And if all of our suggestions don't work... Ditch meditation and pick-up scrapbooking!

(this has a little more merit than it seems)

Immerse yourself in something where distinction falls away.... This can help set the stage for further meditation... Calming or centering excercises etc....

Sub

*off to meditate on the virtue of a good reuben*
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 03:06 pm
Be fully focused/immersed in each and every moment. That fleeting moment is as close to "real" as the illusion ever becomes. We are dogged by the past, and our anticipation of the future, neither of which exist ... even within perceptual reality. Only the present that is gone even as it arrives casts a flickering shadow. Focus on every moment. In meditation focused on breathing to the exclusion of all else. When sweeping, sweep. Scrapbooking, scrapbook. When eating, eat. When confronted by a problem, solve it without being distracted by non-issues or fanciful outcomes. When caressing a woman, don't be reliving the day or rehearsing the morrow. When ready to sleep put away all the day's concerns into their respective drawers, and go to sleep. Be in rythum with the dream world it is your lot to participate in.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 09:24 am
So, Flushed, how is your meditation coming along?
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 10:17 am
I'm glad you asked! Laughing

What I have noticed so far:
*I can sit still longer than before I started
*My patience is growing! I don't snap at people as quickly.
*I don't drink as much coffee. For years and years I vowed to cut down, but I have been seriously addicted (pots a day). Now I have a modest amount and enjoy it.
*I look forward to my meditation time.

I was trying to hard to 'do it right' at first. I got really annoyed. I got all emotional. I wanted to just drop it. I thought "this is stupid. I'm not a Buddhist. I don't believe any of this bs."

I haven't achieved any spiritual bliss, but I do feel better. I really don't care at this point what 'The Truth is' .I am meditating right now because I like it. I feel saner.

I re-read the posts on this thread many times. I don't feel like a Buddhist. I don't 'agree' with all the scripture. It doesn't matter right now. I'm starting to recognize the chatter of my brain. It wants to argue everything. It has an opinion on everything. It wants to be Queen.

This is where I am at right now. I feel like I'm in a battle to put my brainwaves in their rightful place.
Laughing
0 Replies
 
jstark
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 10:23 am
subculture_of_one wrote:
Y'know Ash, the line about 'acknowledge and dismiss the intrusive thought' is kind of like a metaphysical 'That's nice'. Smile

Intrusive though- look at what i can do!
mind- yeah, that's nice.

ignore the bully and they stop beating on you. Shocked
It's as if the act of identifying the intrusive thought and dwelling on it, gives its intrusive quality more weight!

[snip snip]


This reminded me of a rather instructive vaudevillian joke:

Man: Would you sleep with me for $100?
Women: No way, get lost!
Man: How about $1,000?
Women: No! What kind of women do you think I am?
Man: We've already established that, now we're just haggling over price!

There are some conversations that even to engage in them is to tacitly affirm them. This can betrue of many things. I am reminded of that by this joke far to often to count.

Kind Regards
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 10:37 am
Good. I'm glad that you are beginning to bear the fruits of the practice. Don't worry about being "Buddhist", after all its just the sort of label that we are trying to transcend. The whole point is to suffer less and cause less suffering. The meditation technique recommended to you has proven itself over the better part of 2,000 years, and it is difficult for most people, especially for the first year or so. It is possible that you will never experience even a glimpse of Enlightenment, but that's O.K. as long as you and those around you benefit by suffering less.

Are you being "interupted" less now by errant thoughts? You are learning to focus, and that should become evident in your daily activities, and it seems that it has. Good. For now, except for occasional reading of a bit of Buddhist commentary, let the lofty theological stuff remain chaff. There may come a time when you will want to refer to it, but that is likely to be a few years yet down the road.

I'm watching this thread, and appreciate updates on your progress, and your problems.

Your doing good, keep up the good work.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 10:41 am
Jstark,

I believe you left out a couple of lines:

Man: Would you sleep with me for $100?
Women: No way, get lost!
Man: How about a Million dollars and a fur coat?
Woman: Well, maybe.
Man: Then,
How about $1,000?
Women: No! What kind of women do you think I am?
Man: We've already established that, now we're just haggling over price!
0 Replies
 
jstark
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 11:53 am
Asherman wrote:
Jstark,

I believe you left out a couple of lines:

Man: Would you sleep with me for $100?
Women: No way, get lost!
Man: How about a Million dollars and a fur coat?
Woman: Well, maybe.
Man: Then,
How about $1,000?
Women: No! What kind of women do you think I am?
Man: We've already established that, now we're just haggling over price!


That does clear up an inconsistency in the logic. It also points to the requirement of concession by the second party in the face of an absolute (or near absolute). Once that concession has been established, the first party can begin to probe for the lowest level of concession. Getting that first concession is the key to weakening the defensibility of the second persons identity. It also may be necessary for the second party to pose the question as to who they are as if they did not know. That way the first party can gain control of the definition based on the previous concession.

Much more complicated, but it makes sense that way.

The only other saying to stick in my head like that joke is, I think, a Buddhist one. I feel it says a lot about humanity and the universe:

Buddhist: There is no difference between charity and theft, but I would never steal.

btw, this is a really nice thread on meditation. I'm going to begin myself.

Kind Regards
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 09:41 am
Its been a few weeks, so I thought "its time to check again on how folks are doing with meditation, etc.". Flushed, how is it going with you? Have you experienced any problems? Any questions at this point? Once you begin there are sign-posts of progress, and, as your experience deepens, you may benefit from slight changes in the fundamental routine we've started. Please post your progress every couple of weeks for awhile, at least until I'm sure where you are going. Getting a good start is important to insure that you don't go off in wasteful directions, or develop some bad habits that will later cause problems. Keep me informed. If you would prefer more privacy, we can arrange for you to E-mail me directly.

Anyone else who might be following the thread is also invited to speak-up if they have questions or experiences that they would like to relate.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Nov, 2005 12:21 am
Asherman,

Thank you for your interest and your time.

There are a few difficulties I am having.
I have been meditating and putting your 3 suggestions into practise. Sometimes I find myself avoiding it or falling into apathy. I have become quite proficient in self-hynosis when it is convienient. It is as though I simply turn-off. This has been one of my biggest struggles. Simply doing it and keeping the commitment! Once there, I can breathe. Leading up to it, I feel a desire to 'skip out' on it. This feeling of duty, I am recognizing, is a pattern for me.

The other difficulty I am having has to do with feelings and thoughts which are depressive. I re-read the thread about this. There were a lot of helpful suggestions, but I keep returning to this. It is most acute when I am thinking. It is a physical sensation: my guts feel like they are helt down with lead, and I feel like I am gagging on something. This is usually when my mouth runs off all kinds of useless chatter. I know I am chattering; and I know I am chattering to cover the empty feeling. Still, I find it is virtually automatic.

Overall, I feel better and more alive since I have been following these suggestions. I have been having vivid dreams and laugh more often.
I have interest again in areas I forgot existed.

I am hesistant to ask a question, but any insight would be appreciated.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Nov, 2005 11:03 am
First, and perhaps most importantly, never hesitate to ask a question. We learn in at least two ways. We learn by experience, by burning a finger we learn that fire is pretty but has a nasty bite. Experience often takes us down long, convoluted pathways that end up nowhere. We are told things by others, sometimes in books or in college lecture halls. Some old guy drinking from a paperbag on a curbstone will tell us a story to illustrate their experiences, or we tune in to A2K. Some of these sources are as bogus as the day is long, and others offer valuable insights that can make our lives and paths smoother. Only by asking questions can we separate the wheat from the chaff. Even the best sources of information are incomplete, often vague or appearing contradictory. Ask questions to sort it all out.

Often in the first years after one begins to learn self-discipline and begin to see positive results there is a tendency to step away from the very practices that have begun to work. Sometimes, a student begins to think that they've already mastered all that needs to known. "I'm happy with the level of improvement, so why continue such a time-consuming effort?" "Sitting can be uncomfortable, or distracting from the pressing issues of my life." These are relatively common thoughts, I've had them myself. As you've commented, once one sits and commences the task of focusing all attention on the breathing things settle down pretty quickly. One has to submit themselves to the discipline, to reap the rewards of it. Make it a habit that fills a budgeted space/time in every day. In a monastic situation, sitting meditation consumes hours upon hours of every day. An hour before the sun has risen sitting, walking meditation throughout the day. A half hour minimum at lunch. In the early evening another hour, or two before a small meal. Another hour or so, and then a brief interview with the Master. Walking meditation to your cell and sleep. In fact, the "perfect" monk will spend almost the whole day in a meditative state. When you are sitting alone, you have no examples to follow nor a mentor to correct your posture and keep your mind straight. It is tougher, but doable. One step at a time, and remember this is for the long haul.

If you are having feelings and thoughts whilst sitting in meditation, you have strayed. Acknowledge them, and let them go. Return to focus on controlling your breathing. Focus on the breath may seem boring, but until you are much further along this is the easiest way I know of to train your mind and Will. If you have depressive thoughts and feelings during those times when you aren't in sitting meditation mode, that is more understandable. The world of illusion we inhabit is empty, but we remain chained to it and are affected by it. Until you are further developed, the same thoughts, feelings and ego demands will continue to be a nuisance. Take a moment, and focus your mind on your breathing again. Continue until the errant thought/feeling is controlled. During the periods when you are "in-the-world", practice the precepts.

To let yourself abandon sitting meditation, especially in the early phases, most often results in a relapse to the sort of life that is filled with suffering and that causes suffering for others. The "Disease" of suffering is insidious, and isn't cured over-night. Lapses and Relapses are common. Each time we fall away from the practices designed to reduce suffering for ourselves and others, we can choose to get back up on the horse that threw us, or hobble out of the corral and sit nursing our bruises until we die. Just knowing that suffering has causes, and that suffering can be conquered is a balm, but it only works when applied.

Cool Avoid strong and intoxicating substances, or use them in small quantities. Eat and drink in moderation.
Cool Practice modesty in your living arrangements, avoid extremes.
Cool Focus on the work at hand, and use it to reduce the suffering of others.
Cool Perform random acts of kindness, offer encouragement and support to others who are suffering ... perhaps more than yourself.
Cool Carefully consider the probable effect of your words and actions on those around you, speak and act with gravitas.
Cool Let go of the urge to possess, and your possessions will multiply and be more valuable than anything you discard.
Cool Concentrate on the moment, leaving the past behind and the future to take care of itself (This does not mean failure to plan for the future, nor to totally forget the past).
Cool Recognize the place that anger, jealousy, and acquisitiveness play in suffering. Be an example, to yourself and others.

Post comments and questions as they arise. Don't be discouraged.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 12:52 pm
Time to check in with you Folks again.
0 Replies
 
 

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