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Isaiah 45:7 - God creates Evil

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 02:34 pm
LOL. Well, at least that part of it makes sense to me.
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Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 02:37 pm
BrianT wrote:
I don't think it's a good analogy because humans are definitely sentient whereas ants are not definitely sentient.


Well the concept here is put yourself in the ants place. Obviously the ants most likely don't care. There is nothing wrong with the analogy, simply try utilizing your imagination a tad and you'll get the obvious point.

Quote:
It did make me wonder about a Type III civilization* viewing humans as ants and squashing us as they make their way to another galaxy. Also, made me wonder what a Type III would view as evil.

Hate is an emotion which can be experienced; that's what proves it exists.

Evil is defined to exist. Hitler is defined to be evil. Genocide is defined to be evil. The definition is arbitrary.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


*http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/t-5570


Even with genocide there are ways in which it could be seen as neither good nor evil. Say a neighboring tribe of cannibals exists that does nothing but kill and eat anyone they can find. Wiping them out would protect your tribe, so you in fact have a purpose in it. Does that then make it evil?

I understand your point, and there ARE many things in our secular world that we automatically associate with evil. Mostly atrocities and such. And it's extremely hard for anyone (including me) to wrap their mind around how something so heinous could not be labeled evil.

But I believe the point still stands. Evil is an abstract and all-encompassing way to dehumanize a person or persons by those receiving the short end of the stick.
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BrianT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 02:46 pm
Questioner wrote:

Well the concept here is put yourself in the ants place. Obviously the ants most likely don't care. There is nothing wrong with the analogy, simply try utilizing your imagination a tad and you'll get the obvious point.


"Obviously the ants most likely don't care." And I'm putting myself in the ant's place. So I wouldn't care if I get stomped on? That's far from obvious. In fact, it's false.

Quote:
Even with genocide there are ways in which it could be seen as neither good nor evil. Say a neighboring tribe of cannibals exists that does nothing but kill and eat anyone they can find. Wiping them out would protect your tribe, so you in fact have a purpose in it. Does that then make it evil?

You must be asking MA.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 02:54 pm
However one defines evil is probably not as central to the problem as the fact that people who guess there is a God...and that the God essentially is the author of everything...including the "free will" humans have to do things that offend it...

...are then stuck with trying to explain everything...including "God created evil" in a way that does not reflect badly on the God.

I actually agree with that in principle.

If there is a God...it seems inconceivable that anything the God did or does...could be considered negatively by mere humans.

In fact...I could go further than that.

If there is a God...a "Creator" God...and if the God is a personal God as Christians suppose...it most assuredly should be considered a kind, good, helpful, understanding, tolerant, humanity loving kind of entity...and more than likely it would be that.

That is one of the reasons I guess the god of the Bible not to be the God that exists...should one exist.

The god of the Bible is reprehensible...and adoration and worship of it causes theists who "believe" it to be God...to spend way too much time torturing logic to invent rationalizations for its conduct...and its teachings.

If there is a God...of course the God created evil...in every manifestation of its definitions. It created the notion of free-will...and it created situations and temptations so that humans could do things which offend It...

...BUT ONLY IF ONE WANTS TO SUPPOSE THE GOD gets offended by ANYTHING a human does...even the excesses of scum like Caligula, Adolph Hitler... Ted Bundy...or Charles Manson.

But enough from this agnostic. Let the rationalizations continue.
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Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 02:58 pm
BrianT wrote:
"Obviously the ants most likely don't care." And I'm putting myself in the ant's place. So I wouldn't care if I get stomped on? That's far from obvious. In fact, it's false.


Ok. I'm not communicating well today. My apologies. Aside from all of that, your analogy about the ficticious aliens was more or less what I was aiming for.
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Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 03:11 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
However one defines evil is probably not as central to the problem as the fact that people who guess there is a God...and that the God essentially is the author of everything...including the "free will" humans have to do things that offend it...

...are then stuck with trying to explain everything...including "God created evil" in a way that does not reflect badly on the God.

I actually agree with that in principle.

If there is a God...it seems inconceivable that anything the God did or does...could be considered negatively by mere humans.

In fact...I could go further than that.

If there is a God...a "Creator" God...and if the God is a personal God as Christians suppose...it most assuredly should be considered a kind, good, helpful, understanding, tolerant, humanity loving kind of entity...and more than likely it would be that.

That is one of the reasons I guess the god of the Bible not to be the God that exists...should one exist.

The god of the Bible is reprehensible...and adoration and worship of it causes theists who "believe" it to be God...to spend way too much time torturing logic to invent rationalizations for its conduct...and its teachings.

If there is a God...of course the God created evil...in every manifestation of its definitions. It created the notion of free-will...and it created situations and temptations so that humans could do things which offend It...

...BUT ONLY IF ONE WANTS TO SUPPOSE THE GOD gets offended by ANYTHING a human does...even the excesses of scum like Caligula, Adolph Hitler... Ted Bundy...or Charles Manson.

But enough from this agnostic. Let the rationalizations continue.


Here's the rub with that one Frank. If you look at the bible you'll actually discover that there are two personalities of god. The OT god, which was fire, brimstone, the god of genocide and the god to be feared. Then you have the NT version of the lovable, huggable, giving, "forgive all who belive" god. This dichotomy of the character of god is perhaps the most confusing for me.

All that is to say, this is yet another example of how the bible gives them an "out". You say 'God did all of these terrible things!' they say "That was the old god, under the old covenant. The new god is cherry blossoms and snow cones and blah blah . . . .". You get the idea.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 03:20 pm
Questioner wrote:

Here's the rub with that one Frank. If you look at the bible you'll actually discover that there are two personalities of god. The OT god, which was fire, brimstone, the god of genocide and the god to be feared. Then you have the NT version of the lovable, huggable, giving, "forgive all who belive" god. This dichotomy of the character of god is perhaps the most confusing for me.

All that is to say, this is yet another example of how the bible gives them an "out". You say 'God did all of these terrible things!' they say "That was the old god, under the old covenant. The new god is cherry blossoms and snow cones and blah blah . . . .". You get the idea.


Absolutely.

That is why when I debate or discuss the Bible with these fine folk, Questioner...I always make it abundantly clear that when I discuss the god of the Bible...

...I refer to the god that Jesus worshipped.

I neglected to do that here...(although most of these people have heard it in other threads)...and I thank you for giving me the opportunity to clear that up.

As far as I am concerned...and apparently as far as Jesus was concerned...

...the god of the Bible is the god Jesus worshipped...

...and we can read what that god says and does in the first five books of the Bible.

Oh, one other thing...Jesus went out of his way to assure everyone that he was not here to change any of the "Law"...the material contained in Leviticus...and expanded on in Deuteronomy. Not one word...not one letter...not one stroke of a letter...was he here to change.
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BrianT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 03:55 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Let the rationalizations continue.


I'm curious about this remark. Who is rationalizing what in this thread?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 05:04 pm
BrianT wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Let the rationalizations continue.


I'm curious about this remark. Who is rationalizing what in this thread?


Actually...that was overstating the case.

Intrepid was heading in the direction of rationalizing...but stopped well short this time. And so far...to their credit...the usual suspects have not done any rationalizing.

My initial thoughts about rationalization was broader...based on discussions in many threads. I probably should have stopped with that. But the line..."But enough from this agnostic...let the rationalizations continue" had such a nice ring, I couldn't resist.




I withdraw the line.
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BrianT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 05:09 pm
It's all good. Very Happy
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