No Controversial Beatitudes?

It doesn't matter, Momma. I really don't care. I respond to snood's threads because I admire the man.

Frank and I go back a long way and although we may disagree on some things, I respect him.

christianity as I have seen it = Paul/Saulism (Paulines)
chirstianity as seen in the beatitudes = entirely different ball of wax heretofore unseen.

I also want to go on record as seeing Terry's post as hitting the nail fairly square on its head.

After posting the Beatitudes, she wrote:



Many Christians have allowed their heartfelt loathing of abortion rights to cause them to fall into the American conservative camp. While I honestly understand their position (abortion can be a huge concern)...I think many have allowed themselves to "be had" by American conservatives...because most of the American conservative perspective is way, way outside the teachings of Jesus.

If the Beatitudes were given as much credence as the 10 "commandments"...they would indeed have to acknowledge the large chasm between where the American conservative thrust is...and where Jesus would have it be.

I think they would prefer not to do that.

I, for one, would be thrilled to death if people would start adhering to the beatitudes! Tickled pink in fact!

Waaaay back!

Geez, Letty and Momma - I wasn't ignoring you - I have class on Mon, Tue, and every other Weds evening (finishing BS in Educ in November - thinking about taking the LSAT in December).

And Letty - what I was saying is that those "Christians" who seem to be the most visible nowadays (Christian Conservatives) have made public display of the Ten Commandments a rallying cry, but I've never seen them do the same with the words of Jesus. I started this thread because I wanted to see what conclusions people draw from this. The conclusions I draw are that some Christians have a passion for a peculiar kind of Christianity that leaves out the ways of Christ, and that the words of Jesus (ie - the Beatitudes) don't serve any political purpose to them.

snood, nope, didn't know what they were. Agnostic born and raised, have gotten bits of religious info here and there but nowhere near comprehensive, and of what I do know there is probably more of an emphasis on eastern religions than Christianity. A lot of it is familiar to me -- "the meek shall inherit the earth" if not the "Blessed be..." formulation, for example. But the fact that there are a set of Beatitudes and that's what they are specifically, no, didn't know that before.

Where's "Blessed are the cheesemakers"?

I like the beatitudes, indeed - though honoured in the breach rather than observance by rampant political christianity today. (And likely ALL days)

And I agree with Dys about christianity having been hijacked by bloody Saul - may he never have been spifflicated by what he thought was the holy ghost on the Damascus or any other road. (Prolly just blind drunk, but I digress.)


Mind you, I could almost forgive the damned sexist bastid for this one:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, Mt. 17.20 ; 21.21 · Mk. 11.23 and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 ¶ Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.



Though, for all I know, 'tis the writers of the King James that give it its savour....


here is the whole sermon on the mount:

The Beatitudes

1And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:


3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


Believers Are Salt and Light
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.


Christ Fulfills the Law
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


Murder Begins in the Heart
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


Adultery in the Heart
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not commit adultery.'
28But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Marriage Is Sacred and Binding
31 "Furthermore it has been said, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.


Jesus Forbids Oaths
33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' 34But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37But let your "Yes' be "Yes,' and your "No,' "No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


Go the Second Mile
38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.


Love Your Enemies
43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 6


Do Good to Please God
1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.


The Model Prayer
5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8"Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9In this manner, therefore, pray:


Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.


14"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


Fasting to Be Seen Only by God
16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.


Lay Up Treasures in Heaven
19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


The Lamp of the Body
22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!


You Cannot Serve God and Riches
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.


Do Not Worry
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
27Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28"So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31"Therefore do not worry, saying, "What shall we eat?' or "What shall we drink?' or "What shall we wear?' 32For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Matthew 7


Do Not Judge
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
4Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.


Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.


The Narrow Way
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14Because arrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


I Never Knew You
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


Build on the Rock
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
28And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

So Dlowan, do you yourself try to practice any religion, or you just an expert and "guru in training"?

Hmmmm.... I incline towards Buddhism from time to time.....but then again frequently not.

Hi Snood,

I'm not sure, but I don't think Letty meant YOU were ignoring us (I didn't). I know sometimes we all get busy and it takes a bit of time to get back to things.

And you are so right, why aren't the Beatitudes given more weight? Good question. Unfortunately, it's those that leave these out of Christianity that give Christianity a bad name. I hate it when people use Christianity as a stepping stone for politics. Now, if they were truly Christian and followed the beatitudes and the teachings of Christ, I would venture to say we would be in a much better position in this world. Perhaps we would truly be a kinder, gentler nation.

I am so glad you have not been deployed. I will keep praying for you.

Snood - Thanks for this insightful thread.

I prefer separation of church and state as well, but to clarify, I think you were just making a point about the selective use of religious documents, not proposing that either one be placed at the courthouse door. Right?

This happens to be the EXACT thing that has turned me away from church / organized religion and gets me heated in the politics threads.

I was raised as a Christian and accepted Christ at 16. What I see of Christians now bears no resemblance to the loving church and Christian home in which I was raised, which DID emphasize The Beatitudes over the Ten Commandments.

The hijacking of Christianity by the Republican party literaly makes me ill. That so many have been led astray by thinking the Republican Party represents a more Godly government is shocking to me.

Thanks for posting The Sermon, dlowan. My teachings were that the "Faith, Hope, Charity/Love" section referred to what is actually in your heart. Charity, yes. But it's what is in your heart when you do it that matters. It's not just the act of giving, so don't be passing out goodies thinking you are gonna get into heaven. Do it without expectation, ego or to buy your ticket to heaven. Do it for love.

I have never connected the KJ "charity" with the modern most common meaning of the term, but simply translated it as "love".

Reading

The politics / religion related stuff happening in the US constantly brings to mind the Joan Osbourn song:

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
He's trying to make his way home...

Cause to me, He is the stranger on the bus. He is the old woman drowning in New Orleans. He is the nurse hand pumping the oxygen into patients no longer able to use ventilators due to power being out. He is the real test of our love for others as presented through others.

I, and many others, do not feel the love of the Republican party. Their "charity" extends to the Shiavo's of the world, but only as a way to make their political statements, which we can see from The Sermon is NOT charity/love. This was pointed out before when Republicans were rallying around Terry and the wishes of her parents, while ignoring the little black baby in Texas disconnected from life support AGAINST his mothers wishes.

The thing is, this is stuff Christians are supposed to know. I'm constantly in wonder how they can be so misled when clearly warned about wolves in sheeps clothing.

They are weak and they are manipulated by fear and the need to be led by someone who pretends to have all the answers.

And, God made it clear that we are not to fear, not to worry and most of all to TRUST in Him, that He is the one with the answeers, not the POTUS.

Which adds to my wonder of how the Christians that should know better, don't.

Of course, selective use of religious documents is not the exclusive vice of Christians, agnostics and atheists are quite fond of the technique as well.