Letty wrote:J.J., honey. What are you talking about?
Someone mentioned 'adherence to a personal ethos' as if it was something good. But I asked how, or by what standards an adherence is meant to be good or even meant to be applied.
Oh, okay, J.J. of course, everything should be put in cultural context, but there are still universal criteria. Although honor could be a thing of the past, it's only because giant corporations all over the world have become so complex that no one has any idea who is part of what. Often it just takes one honorable person to test the system. Doesn't mean that the ONE person will win, it simply means that the honor lies within that ONE person's soul.
Breathe, I have gone through this "honor" thing so often, that I'm a bit confused myself. I just know that leaders, such as in the military, are out to win the war as quickly as possible. Sherman knew it; Russia knew it; Washington knew it.
This was all theoretically speaking. I didnt mean for it to become so confusing. I must be totally idiotic cause i have NO idea what John Jones is talking about. his posts have just flown way over my head each time. Maybe the tenth time through reading it will make sense.
The only point I was getting at is what do we consider to be honorable. Mr. Jones has actually proven what i suspected, that more and more nothing makes a man honorable and no one considers it a value in a man.
Some one had noted that this all applies to women too, and i agree and am not discrediting the many honorable woman in our lives and in history.
I was hoping that this would be a longer thread, but it seems that it might be run into the ground sooner than expected.
I enjoy greatly the way that people think and reason, the methods and routes they use to get to conclusions. The web that is their pattern of thinking.
John Jones, with you i want to set honor aside completely and ask you by what measure do you weigh the value of a man? Your answers interest me a lot.
To everyone else the question still remains. Only i will re-word it. If a man has no honor how does he become a leader?
We'll try that see how it goes....
Letty wrote:Oh, okay, J.J. of course, everything should be put in cultural context, but there are still universal criteria. Although honor could be a thing of the past, it's only because giant corporations all over the world have become so complex that no one has any idea who is part of what. Often it just takes one honorable person to test the system. Doesn't mean that the ONE person will win, it simply means that the honor lies within that ONE person's soul.
Breathe, I have gone through this "honor" thing so often, that I'm a bit confused myself. I just know that leaders, such as in the military, are out to win the war as quickly as possible. Sherman knew it; Russia knew it; Washington knew it.
If 'honour' and what is honourable is a public judgement we might wonder how a person can privately have 'honour'. In response we might say something like 'God sees your honour', in order to fulfill the public nature of 'honour'.
Lee wrote: "A true gentleman of honor feels humbled himself when he cannot help humbling others." This is not in the least a statement which suggests that one is obliged to imagine a deity, nor truckle to public opinion in order to have a sense of honor. Lee was personally motivated by a strong christian belief, but that is not essential to the formation of a personal ethos. The continued insistence that honor can only be conceived of as a public judgment is simply a case of being hard-headed. It is entirely possible to have a personal ethos which is indifferent to public opinion. One might do that which attracts public censure and all the while adhere to one's own personal standards. It is just silly to continue to insist that honor is something indulged in for public approbation.
BreatheThePoison wrote:
John Jones, with you i want to set honor aside completely and ask you by what measure do you weigh the value of a man? Your answers interest me a lot.
To everyone else the question still remains. Only i will re-word it. If a man has no honor how does he become a leader?
We'll try that see how it goes....
I don't like people who are nasty and selfish, especially selfish. They're the people who play their music in your car, loudly, at every opportunity, then go on to become murderous dictators.
Well, folks. I know that it is a cop out to quote Shakespeare, but I still believe that the bard knew people then, and it still holds true today.
"...and, Brutus is an honorable man; so are they all; all honorable men..."
Breathe, Sherman knew a scorched earth policy would end the Civil War quickly. He was right, and in that he did the honorable thing. The Russians knew the same strategy would end Napoleon's advance, and whoever the leaders, they also did the honorable thing. George Washington lost all the battles, but won the war. In that he was an honorable man. I hope this makes sense, because abstract nouns are very difficult to agree upon. In connotation, we must look at the plus and minus value of a word. Honor is alway a plus.
Ok, I'll quit now.
i heard rumors that hitler offten played his music in Churchill's car.
Letty wrote:Well, folks. I know that it is a cop out to quote Shakespeare, but I still believe that the bard knew people then, and it still holds true today.
"...and, Brutus is an honorable man; so are they all; all honorable men..."
Breathe, Sherman knew a scorched earth policy would end the Civil War quickly. He was right, and in that he did the honorable thing. The Russians knew the same strategy would end Napoleon's advance, and whoever the leaders, they also did the honorable thing. George Washington lost all the battles, but won the war. In that he was an honorable man. I hope this makes sense, because abstract nouns are very difficult to agree upon. In connotation, we must look at the plus and minus value of a word. Honor is alway a plus.
Ok, I'll quit now.
As I said, honour is in the public domain, a social judgement, not a private one.
John Jones wrote:As I said, honour is in the public domain, a social judgement, not a private one.
Some day, I hope, you'll see it's not.
"Honor has not to be won; it must only not be lost."
Arthur Schopenhauer (German Philosopher, 1788-1860)
I believe that when a man (or woman) acts dishonorably, they my be putting others in jeopardy - but mostly they jepodize their own reputation, their own honorable soul. There is no honour in seeking social approval,
there is only honour in knowing that one has not dishonored oneself with dishonorable acts, such as deceiving oneself or others for personal (not necceserally material) gain.
I think that facing up to the truth is honorable. Being prepared to admit you are wrong is honorable. Acts of kindness delivered without fanfare are honorable. Most that a man can do to honour himself and others, is to seek to educate and enlighten himself - and to pass what he has learnt onto others, without passing judgement.
(so far, I'm still having trouble with the 'not passing judgement' bit. When I think of George and Tony, I can't help being judgemental. I know this is not honorable, but hell, I'm not perfect.)
By the way, the title of the thread is: What makes a man?
I can answer that in two words: A penis.
Even dishonorable men are still men, just men without balls.
you want honorable men?
Try
www.veteransforpeace.org
Or look up Kevin Benderman,
www.bendermandefense.org
Most Decorated Green Beret Commander Transfers Medal to Kevin.
[/QUOTE]What makes a man honorable?
Quote:
Accountability
Responsibility
Conviction
Faith
Commitment
Discipline
Concern
Consideration
A real man obeys the word of God. He knows God exists from the following proof:
1. Preheat oven to 450 degrees.
2. Remove pizza from plastic, and place it directly on middle rack.
3. Bake until crust is desired crispiness (18-21 minutes).
4. Remove from oven and let stand for 2 minutes before serving.
5. God exists.
So there.
Oh, and I forgot to mention: real men don't believe in Soft Jazz.
Soft Jazz is a myth. An existential claptrap designed to anchor the minds of those who cannot deal with contingency, chance and change.
Real man have a mighty flow.
I saw a bumper sticker the other day on a car that read "It takes a village to raise a child."
And what does this have to do with the thread?
Well, it may take a village to raise a child, but it also takes a real man to beat that child.
A real man is a child, in drag.
why does a man need to be honorable any more than a woman needs to be honorable? what is with the sexual discrimination against me.. er i mean men? huh?
Honour appears in the public domain and is not a property or act manifested in the individual.
Quote:To everyone else the question still remains. Only i will re-word it. If a man has no honor how does he become a leader?
This one is actually quite simple, and i can answer it in one teacher maddening school expelling word, "hitler". After the war to end all wars was fought and done the allies had stripped germany of her pocessions. Colonies, natural resources, military, and worst of all, they were the ones to blame for the war. How did he who is not to be named rise to the top? Well, he did it by back stabbing, dick sucking and great public speeches. Ave you read mein kampf?
