6
   

Joe Rogan vs Neil Young: a speech / marketplace issue

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Mon 7 Feb, 2022 08:53 am
@Lash,
…autocorrect…’incites violence’
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  -1  
Mon 7 Feb, 2022 09:04 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Quite an intelligent article, hightor.

It's intelligent enough, just a bit snarky. I don't think popularizing climate denial is any funnier than promoting vaccine skepticism.

Nowhere have I suggested that he be driven from social media.

Anyway, I was hoping you'd reply to my response about "deliberate falsehoods" a couple of posts back.
Lash
 
  1  
Mon 7 Feb, 2022 11:07 am
@hightor,
It was a little irritating to me that I’d already mentioned a few examples of Fauci’s misinformation errors in the thread, only to be asked to repeat them.

But, here’s a more explanatory article, examining some Fauci misinformation and disinformation.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/fauci-lies-and-makes-mistakes-just-like-the-rest-of-us

(Anticipating a variety of excuses for them)

hightor
 
  0  
Mon 7 Feb, 2022 12:02 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
It was a little irritating to me that I’d already mentioned a few examples of Fauci’s misinformation errors in the thread....

Sorry, but I didn't find them in this thread.

The Fraser report, originating from an institution with a conservative/libertarian leaning, doesn't really provide any obvious examples of dishonesty or disinformation on Fauci's part. The March 2020 (!) "wearing masks in public" thing has been explained numerous times.

There has been no evidence that the virus escaped from a lab and Facebook posts "claiming the virus was manmade or manufactured" truly were “misinformation”. It's perfectly acceptable to speculate that the virus could have originated from a lab leak but not to state it as a fact. A recent study in Science provides support for the natural origin theory:
Quote:
...most early symptomatic cases were linked to Huanan Market—specifically to the western section (1) where raccoon dogs were caged (2)—provides strong evidence of a live-animal market origin of the pandemic.
This would explain the extraordinary preponderance of early COVID-19 cases at one of the handful of sites in Wuhan—population 11 million—that sell some of the same animals that brought us SARS. Although it may never be possible to recover related viruses from animals if they were not sampled at the time of emergence, conclusive evidence of a Huanan Market origin from infected wildlife may nonetheless be obtainable through analysis of spatial patterns of early cases and from additional genomic data, including SARS-CoV-2–positive samples from Huanan Market, as well as through integration of additional epidemiologic data.


The other accusations of dishonesty in the Fraser piece are really petty and insignificant:

Quote:
Senator Rand Paul suggested that Fauci, since he’d already been fully vaccinated, was wearing a mask as public health theatre. Fauci denied this, saying the mask was protective. But in a later interview with ABC, he admitted that he actually wore the mask as a signal; because he was immunized, his chances of being infected indoors were extremely low.


Gee, how terrible for a leading public health official to wear a mask for public relations purposes! And guess what? The omicron variant has shown that even people who have been vaccinated are not completely immunized. fAuCi LiEd!!! In any case, when it comes to honesty, I'd side with Fauci over Rand Paul any day.

So I pose this question again: Did Fauci ever prescribe hydroxychloroquine, tout injections of disinfectants, or claim that choosing not to get a vaccine and not being able to go to a movie theater is comparable to Jewish people being targeted and murdered? These pernicious lies all originated on the right and their sole purpose was to undercut scientific studies and cast doubt on CDC recommendations.
hightor
 
  0  
Mon 7 Feb, 2022 03:15 pm
Rumble offers Joe Rogan $100 million to bring show to video platform

Quote:
Social media platform Rumble has offered Joe Rogan $100 million to bring his popular podcast “The Joe Rogan Experience” to its video platform amid controversy surrounding his show on Spotify.

Rumble CEO Chris Pavlovski wrote in an open letter on Monday that he stands with Rogan, who is facing blowback for COVID-19 vaccine misinformation on his show and his past use of racial slurs.

"We stand with you, your guests, and your legion of fans in desire for real conversation," Pavlovski said in his letter.

"So we'd like to offer you 100 million reasons to make the world a better place. How about you bring all your shows to Rumble, both old and new, with no censorship, for 100 million bucks over four years?" he added.

"This is our chance to save the world. And yes, this is totally legit," Pavlovski said.

Rogan signed an exclusive deal with Spotify in 2020 that was reportedly worth more than $100 million and included the show's library dating back 11 years.

The former host of the TV reality series “Fear Factor” has been the center of controversy in recent weeks, forcing Spotify to defend the lucrative relationship.

Musicians Neil Young, Joni Mitchell and others recently removed their music catalogs from the streaming platform in protest of Rogan spreading misinformation about the COVID-19 vaccine.

India Arie also pulled her music and shared on social media a compilation video of Rogan saying the n-word around 20 times in old episodes of his podcast.

Spotify said that Rogan then decided to remove more than 70 episodes from the podcast library.

Rogan apologized for the racist remarks in a video on Instagram over the weekend.

“I can’t go back in time and change what I said, I wish I could, obviously that’s not possible, but I do hope this could be a teachable moment for anybody that doesn’t realize how offensive that word could be coming out of a white person’s mouth, in context or out of context.”

Spotify CEO Daniel Ek said Rogan's comments were "hurtful" but argued that silencing people was not the proper response, instead promising to invest in a greater diversity of voices on the platform.

thehill
hightor
 
  -1  
Mon 7 Feb, 2022 03:37 pm
Republicans, Wooing Trump Voters, Make Fauci Their Boogeyman
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  3  
Mon 7 Feb, 2022 08:03 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
The March 2020 (!) "wearing masks in public" thing has been explained numerous times.

Are you talking about "the noble lie" thing?
hightor
 
  -1  
Mon 7 Feb, 2022 08:18 pm
@Glennn,
No. You are.
Glennn
 
  3  
Mon 7 Feb, 2022 08:19 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
. . . obvious examples of dishonesty or disinformation on Fauci's part.

Do lies of omission count, cuz there's that, too.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  3  
Mon 7 Feb, 2022 08:24 pm
@hightor,
It wasn't really a noble lie.

It seems that tony should have ordered a lockdown instead of sending everyone out on a super-spreader event just because he didn't want regular folk making a run on masks. That doesn't make sense, now does it?
Glennn
 
  1  
Tue 8 Feb, 2022 08:21 am
@Glennn,
BUMP!

What about lies of omission? Do they count, too?

And what about sending everyone out on a super-spreader event to conserve masks?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Tue 8 Feb, 2022 08:28 am
@Glennn,
The fact that you’ve presented is that Fauci lied to the public about wearing masks. He said people didn’t need them. It was disinformation. But it really doesn’t matter to most people here.

There are approximately 3 or 4 intellectually honest people on this site who will confront a fact head-on instead of twist around attempting to dismiss it because it doesn’t fit in with their preferred narrative.

They call on you to prove your claim with evidence, and then they go in their kit bag to pluck out one of their tried and true excuses to try to dismiss the point.

This is why I’m not invested in convincing anyone in this closed environment. I’m just introducing an opposing view for anyone who wanders by reading. And sometimes, I’ll ignore calls for evidence because I assuredly know the dance and I’m not a fan.
Glennn
 
  3  
Tue 8 Feb, 2022 08:50 am
@Lash,
Quote:
The fact that you’ve presented is that Fauci lied to the public about wearing masks. He said people didn’t need them. It was disinformation. But it really doesn’t matter to most people here.

The thing is, once an authority figure is established in the minds of certain people, they just forget how not to believe them even after having been lied to by the figure. Everything is forgiven . . .

For example, tony condemned a PCR-test cycle threshold of anything over 35, but willfully decided to not say a word as labs around the world did just that (a lie of omission). When confronted with that fact, tony supporters suddenly determine that "set too high" and "meaningless results" are too hard for them to understand.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  0  
Tue 8 Feb, 2022 09:02 am
Look, the word 'lie' is a bit too strong here - that implies intent. Everyone, from the WHO on down, around the world was scrambling. Our top health minister told us not to wear masks because we didn't know how to use put them on properly, for Pete's sake! The advice changed from week to week, and sometimes from day to day. Around the world. In your country, in the beginning, nobody was listening to the CDC - they were effectively silenced.

Given that the world had experienced virus outbreaks, it's a wonder they didn't have a) a coordinated plan, b) correct information, and c) a calm and orderly system to enact them.

The whole world bungled this thing. Misinformation was out at the very start with advice on how the virus spread (for God's sake, don't touch your face!), how long it lasted on various products (metal, plastic, cardboard, etc), what kind of masks to use, etc. And nobody was ready with PPEs. It was a huge boondoggle. And as more and more research was done and more information was being released, there were more and more changes. Everyone was simply reacting. You had to keep 6' apart, but then it turns out that 50% of your droplets dissipated within x seconds or minutes. I've been reading and listening all along, and I'm still not quite sure about all of it.

And why would you think anyone would want to mislead the public in the face of such a virulent (initially) and easily transmissible virus that caused great injury? That's just a ridiculous conspiracy theory.
Glennn
 
  3  
Tue 8 Feb, 2022 09:07 am
@Mame,
What in hell does that have to do with labs setting the cycle threshold at 40+ when tony knew better. He said it would give meaningless results. So, in your own words, explain the virtue of tony's decision to keep his mouth shut about that fact.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Tue 8 Feb, 2022 10:01 am
@Mame,
I’m almost certain he admitted the lie about masks because he knew the public would rush out and buy masks that perhaps might make it harder for the healthcare community to have enough.

My problem is a lie is a lie; a mistake is a mistake; one man’s misinformation isn’t diminished just because the loudest political group says it’s ok.

Equal judgment is important to me.
Lash
 
  1  
Tue 8 Feb, 2022 10:09 am
Fauci lied to manipulate public behavior. I don’t think public health officials should lie to the public.

https://slate.com/technology/2021/07/noble-lies-covid-fauci-cdc-masks.amp
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  0  
Tue 8 Feb, 2022 10:41 am
Joe Rogan Is a Drop in the Ocean of Medical Misinformation

Quote:
Another week, another platform in trouble for allowing its talent to give voice to misinformation. This time, Joe Rogan suggested that the mRNA Covid-19 vaccines are a type of “gene therapy” and that young people are at a greater risk from the shots than the disease, among other false and dubious health claims featured on his popular, Spotify-hosted podcast. The calls to remove his podcast have only intensified after revelations that he’s also repeatedly used a racist slur on the show, leading Spotify’s chief to apologize to the company’s employees.

The best outcome of the scandal wouldn’t be that Mr. Rogan was kicked off Spotify, at least not for the health bunk. It would be seeing his misleading Covid content in context: It’s just a tiny drop in the ocean of online health nonsense.

Medical drivel has ballooned with the rise of streaming, e-commerce and social media platforms. Unlike the anti-vaccine pamphlets that skeptics handed out centuries ago, people spreading erroneous health advice today can near-instantly reach audiences of millions.

The problem is so much bigger than Joe Rogan or Spotify. And platforms, lawmakers and regulators aren’t keeping up.

To get a sense of the scale, take a stroll down the giant virtual health aisles at Amazon, which has more than 200 million subscribers and millions more customers who shop without subscriptions. There, retailers hawk sedative drops, dopamine boosters and metabolism boosters, all of which possess only dubious evidence for efficacy for their marketed uses. One supplement maker seems to imply it can help HPV “vanish,” while another purports to “help cleanse and repair the liver.”

If you’d rather read harmful health gobbledygook, Amazon has plenty of books to choose from. You can study a two-week plan to “kill H.I.V.,” a vaccine “reappraisal” from a doctor who promotes homeopathic medicine for childbirth, or “The Truth About Covid-19,” co-written by Joseph Mercola, an osteopathic physician whom researchers labeled the single-worst spreader of Covid misinformation.

Over at Netflix, Gwyneth Paltrow, a notorious peddler of dubious wellness claims, like the effectiveness of mediums, energy healing and “cold therapy,” shares her Goop Lab with the platform’s roughly 222 million subscribers. After Goop, you might watch a topsy-turvy nutrition documentary, like “What the Health,” which features such overstated claims as drinking milk can exacerbate cancer risks and eating an egg a day is as dangerous as smoking — one of the most dangerous human health habits. On Apple TV (and Amazon), you can bask in “The Magic Pill,” a documentary that touts a high-fat, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet as a salve for autism and cancer.

Then we have the usual spaces for superspreading falsehoods: Twitter, Facebook and YouTube. In the middle range of the available estimates, roughly 10 percent of Covid-related tweets and posts have been found to contain misinformation. The diversity of the false Covid claims circulating on social media is staggering. Bleach, cocaine and water have all been promoted as remedies — as have ineffective and potentially harmful medicines, like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.

It’s clear that misinformation harms human health, stokes panic, wastes money and leads people to miss opportunities to pursue options that could have helped. But the new fire hose of bunk is also harming us in less obvious ways. It’s hitting our fractured societies — and, we believe, contributing to further polarization.

Another week, another platform in trouble for allowing its talent to give voice to misinformation. This time, Joe Rogan suggested that the mRNA Covid-19 vaccines are a type of “gene therapy” and that young people are at a greater risk from the shots than the disease, among other false and dubious health claims featured on his popular, Spotify-hosted podcast. The calls to remove his podcast have only intensified after revelations that he’s also repeatedly used a racist slur on the show, leading Spotify’s chief to apologize to the company’s employees.

The best outcome of the scandal wouldn’t be that Mr. Rogan was kicked off Spotify, at least not for the health bunk. It would be seeing his misleading Covid content in context: It’s just a tiny drop in the ocean of online health nonsense.

Medical drivel has ballooned with the rise of streaming, e-commerce and social media platforms. Unlike the anti-vaccine pamphlets that skeptics handed out centuries ago, people spreading erroneous health advice today can near-instantly reach audiences of millions.

The problem is so much bigger than Joe Rogan or Spotify. And platforms, lawmakers and regulators aren’t keeping up.

To get a sense of the scale, take a stroll down the giant virtual health aisles at Amazon, which has more than 200 million subscribers and millions more customers who shop without subscriptions. There, retailers hawk sedative drops, dopamine boosters and metabolism boosters, all of which possess only dubious evidence for efficacy for their marketed uses. One supplement maker seems to imply it can help HPV “vanish,” while another purports to “help cleanse and repair the liver.”
Opinion Conversation Questions surrounding the Covid-19 vaccine and its rollout.

If you’d rather read harmful health gobbledygook, Amazon has plenty of books to choose from. You can study a two-week plan to “kill H.I.V.,” a vaccine “reappraisal” from a doctor who promotes homeopathic medicine for childbirth, or “The Truth About Covid-19,” co-written by Joseph Mercola, an osteopathic physician whom researchers labeled the single-worst spreader of Covid misinformation.

Over at Netflix, Gwyneth Paltrow, a notorious peddler of dubious wellness claims, like the effectiveness of mediums, energy healing and “cold therapy,” shares her Goop Lab with the platform’s roughly 222 million subscribers. After Goop, you might watch a topsy-turvy nutrition documentary, like “What the Health,” which features such overstated claims as drinking milk can exacerbate cancer risks and eating an egg a day is as dangerous as smoking — one of the most dangerous human health habits. On Apple TV (and Amazon), you can bask in “The Magic Pill,” a documentary that touts a high-fat, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet as a salve for autism and cancer.

Then we have the usual spaces for superspreading falsehoods: Twitter, Facebook and YouTube. In the middle range of the available estimates, roughly 10 percent of Covid-related tweets and posts have been found to contain misinformation. The diversity of the false Covid claims circulating on social media is staggering. Bleach, cocaine and water have all been promoted as remedies — as have ineffective and potentially harmful medicines, like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.

It’s clear that misinformation harms human health, stokes panic, wastes money and leads people to miss opportunities to pursue options that could have helped. But the new fire hose of bunk is also harming us in less obvious ways. It’s hitting our fractured societies — and, we believe, contributing to further polarization.

Quackery won’t disappear by deplatforming or censoring people. Dr. Mercola proved that: After his posts were curtailed by Twitter and Facebook, he simply migrated to the newsletter platform Substack, where he’s one of a number of anti-vaccine activists reportedly making over $1 million annually for stoking vaccine fears. If we really want to push back against health nonsense, we also need more than one-off celebrity condemnations and targeted content disappearing. Instead, we need to prevent false or misleading health claims from reaching millions of people in the first place.

Doing this won’t be easy. It will require a mix of strategies, tailored to different platforms and groups. E-commerce sites like Amazon could introduce content warnings or adjust their pricing and ranking algorithms for health products and books that have been flagged for misinformation. Governments could also step in and mandate evidentiary standards for a broader range of health statements than the pharmaceutical and food claims they currently regulate.

Streaming platforms like Netflix and Spotify could introduce fact-checking for their nonfiction health content. They could provide additional context, including links to credible information sources, or adjust their algorithms to limit the spread of health misinformation. They could also play an educational role, developing programs that improve media and information literacy.

The best health bunk prevention of all may be education. Two randomized-control trials carried out in Uganda showed that schoolchildren and their parents can be taught to vet the reliability of health-treatment claims and make more informed decisions. If similar approaches became mainstream, we’d have little armies of lie detectors everywhere who could prevent dubious health figures from ever getting a big platform.

We also need approaches that would have an impact across the web, like raising the stakes for health professionals who, as two health care experts fighting disinformation wrote, are “weaponizing their white coats” to mislead the public. Right now, state medical regulatory bodies focus on individual patient encounters, not the role doctors might play as healers for the masses. The American Medical Association has commented occasionally on public-facing physicians, yet while doctor disinformation has only worsened in the pandemic, few physicians have been reprimanded by their state boards.

Whatever strategies companies and governments embrace, they must also protect other priorities, like well-functioning markets and freedom of expression. They should be applied consistently to all people, regardless of the tribe they’re part of — from liberal lifestyle gurus like Ms. Paltrow to libertarian-leaning talking heads like Mr. Rogan. And any approach tried should be defensible, rooted in evidence and tempered by a healthy dose of humility and empathy.

The good news is that it’s now easier than ever to make sure health claims are well informed. Alongside the torrent of health junk, there’s been a quiet revolution to surface the best-available research and make it accessible for all. As we described in a recent report by the Global Commission on Evidence to Address Societal Challenges on the importance of scientific evidence, “living” evidence syntheses have taken off during the pandemic. These are continuously updated documents that slot in new studies as they are published, based on their quality, so users have an evolving picture of what the entire research base, not just the newest paper, suggests about a particular issue.

The best living evidence reports also examine how findings vary by groups and contexts. Their analogue — living guidelines — extends the approach to evidence-based recommendations. But these tools remain sorely underused by the public and governments, even as Ms. Paltrow and Mr. Rogan command huge audiences.

It’s worth remembering that medical bunk isn’t a new phenomenon. There was a time when any apothecary could sell almost any drug with whatever claims its maker wanted to boast. It was only during the 20th century that the U.S. government introduced laws overseeing the effectiveness of pharmaceuticals and the accuracy of marketing campaigns.

Today, we don’t wait for musicians and other celebrities to protest dangerous drugs after people have died taking them. Drugmakers are supposed to prevent harm by proving their products are safe and effective. They have to provide regulators with evidence for claims they want to make about products before they reach the market.

The system isn’t perfect, but it’s certainly safer than it was a century ago. Freedom of expression remains intact and the market works, and it probably works even better. This gives us hope that a new strategy can emerge for combating today’s pseudoscience peddlers, just as one did for their predecessors.

Quackery won’t disappear by deplatforming or censoring people. Dr. Mercola proved that: After his posts were curtailed by Twitter and Facebook, he simply migrated to the newsletter platform Substack, where he’s one of a number of anti-vaccine activists reportedly making over $1 million annually for stoking vaccine fears. If we really want to push back against health nonsense, we also need more than one-off celebrity condemnations and targeted content disappearing. Instead, we need to prevent false or misleading health claims from reaching millions of people in the first place.

Doing this won’t be easy. It will require a mix of strategies, tailored to different platforms and groups. E-commerce sites like Amazon could introduce content warnings or adjust their pricing and ranking algorithms for health products and books that have been flagged for misinformation. Governments could also step in and mandate evidentiary standards for a broader range of health statements than the pharmaceutical and food claims they currently regulate.

Streaming platforms like Netflix and Spotify could introduce fact-checking for their nonfiction health content. They could provide additional context, including links to credible information sources, or adjust their algorithms to limit the spread of health misinformation. They could also play an educational role, developing programs that improve media and information literacy.

The best health bunk prevention of all may be education. Two randomized-control trials carried out in Uganda showed that schoolchildren and their parents can be taught to vet the reliability of health-treatment claims and make more informed decisions. If similar approaches became mainstream, we’d have little armies of lie detectors everywhere who could prevent dubious health figures from ever getting a big platform.

We also need approaches that would have an impact across the web, like raising the stakes for health professionals who, as two health care experts fighting disinformation wrote, are “weaponizing their white coats” to mislead the public. Right now, state medical regulatory bodies focus on individual patient encounters, not the role doctors might play as healers for the masses. The American Medical Association has commented occasionally on public-facing physicians, yet while doctor disinformation has only worsened in the pandemic, few physicians have been reprimanded by their state boards.

Whatever strategies companies and governments embrace, they must also protect other priorities, like well-functioning markets and freedom of expression. They should be applied consistently to all people, regardless of the tribe they’re part of — from liberal lifestyle gurus like Ms. Paltrow to libertarian-leaning talking heads like Mr. Rogan. And any approach tried should be defensible, rooted in evidence and tempered by a healthy dose of humility and empathy.

The good news is that it’s now easier than ever to make sure health claims are well informed. Alongside the torrent of health junk, there’s been a quiet revolution to surface the best-available research and make it accessible for all. As we described in a recent report by the Global Commission on Evidence to Address Societal Challenges on the importance of scientific evidence, “living” evidence syntheses have taken off during the pandemic. These are continuously updated documents that slot in new studies as they are published, based on their quality, so users have an evolving picture of what the entire research base, not just the newest paper, suggests about a particular issue.

The best living evidence reports also examine how findings vary by groups and contexts. Their analogue — living guidelines — extends the approach to evidence-based recommendations. But these tools remain sorely underused by the public and governments, even as Ms. Paltrow and Mr. Rogan command huge audiences.

It’s worth remembering that medical bunk isn’t a new phenomenon. There was a time when any apothecary could sell almost any drug with whatever claims its maker wanted to boast. It was only during the 20th century that the U.S. government introduced laws overseeing the effectiveness of pharmaceuticals and the accuracy of marketing campaigns.

Today, we don’t wait for musicians and other celebrities to protest dangerous drugs after people have died taking them. Drugmakers are supposed to prevent harm by proving their products are safe and effective. They have to provide regulators with evidence for claims they want to make about products before they reach the market.

The system isn’t perfect, but it’s certainly safer than it was a century ago. Freedom of expression remains intact and the market works, and it probably works even better. This gives us hope that a new strategy can emerge for combating today’s pseudoscience peddlers, just as one did for their predecessors.

nyt/belluz/lavis
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  -1  
Tue 8 Feb, 2022 11:09 am
@Lash,
Quote:
I’m almost certain he admitted the lie about masks because he knew the public would rush out and buy masks that perhaps might make it harder for the healthcare community to have enough.

It was March 2020. There weren't enough. Nurses were using the same disposable paper masks for a week.

Lash
 
  1  
Tue 8 Feb, 2022 11:12 am
@hightor,
It was a lie. The public deserves the truth from public officials.
Imagine my surprise that you are dismissing the FACT that he lied.
 

 
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