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Is Utopianism Actually a Bad Thing?

 
 
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2021 11:36 pm
Everyone from the UN to environmentalists to presidents & leaders have big ideals. Maybe it's disarming the population. Maybe trying to do away with pollution. Or some idea of ending racial discrimination.

Currently, I'm watching His Dark Materials, and they're talking about cutting away people's external souls because they are concerned about their sin or something. Right, because being a zombie is surely better than just dealing with the fact that sin is a fact of life.

But this isn't unique. Nazi regime was based on ideals of racial purity, and having a strong culture. Communism was the idea of sharing everything and equality. The French Revolution was the idea of doing away with the royals in favor of the commoners.

Here's the thing. Idealism is ****. The French Revolution ended in a bloodbath. They had several grand ideas like a new calendar and the metric system, but let's not also forget the guillotine. Communism was ruinous for every country that tried it (Russia and the Ukraines ran out of food, yet they continued to raid, declaring that they were hiding stuff). And there's a spot in SE Asia where there is an enormous mass grave from all the bodies killed under it. Nazis nearly brought the Jews to extinction. Disarming the population? It usually results in criminals attacking the disarmed who can't defend themselves. Ending discrimination? In its most extreme form, this probably either means aborting all minorities or some kind of interbreeding project to make everyone the same.

Mankind seems to be at its worst when it believes it is "improving" the world. I myself can imagine a world with no rejection, but I can see that sort of thing forced somehow.

If this is the case, what would be the best sort of world? Try to explain how to make it so something wouldn't be horribly horribly wrong with society. How do we stop with the "ideal" worlds, and make society one we'd wanna live in?
 
View best answer, chosen by bulmabriefs144
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2021 12:39 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
what would be the best sort of world?


A world in which everyone obeyed the very law that they impose on the society around them: Don't Kill me or mine, don't steal from me or mine. don't bring false accusations against me or mine, don't sleep with my partner, etc, etc.

What a wonderful world that would be, a world in which everyone obeyed Jesus, who said, that to inherit everlasting life, you must love your neighbour as yourself and to do unto them, only that which you would want them to do unto you.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2021 03:04 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:
Right, because being a zombie is surely better than just dealing with the fact that sin is a fact of life.


"Sin" is something that offends one's god.

Stop guessing that there is a god that would be offended by ANYTHING a human does...and sin goes away. You people who want to think that EVERYONE is a sinner...are pathetic.

There are things we should do in order to allow society and civilization to thrive. We humans should make those rules. We should not invent gods to make them for us.

"There is no such thing as sin" makes as much sense as "sin is a fact of life" or "everyone is a sinner."
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2021 03:07 am
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:

Quote:
what would be the best sort of world?


A world in which everyone obeyed the very law that they impose on the society around them: Don't Kill me or mine, don't steal from me or mine. don't bring false accusations against me or mine, don't sleep with my partner, etc, etc.

What a wonderful world that would be, a world in which everyone obeyed Jesus, who said, that to inherit everlasting life, you must love your neighbour as yourself and to do unto them, only that which you would want them to do unto you.



Anyone so afraid of death that they would want to "inherit everlasting life" is to be pitied.

Stop being so afraid. In the meantime, until you are able to do that, I will continue to pity you.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2021 11:37 am
@Frank Apisa,
Read the comment I made under the Original Sin thing. Sin isn't what you think it is.

The sooner you read my post there, the better you'd understand me, and the less we'd argue. Unless you thrive on that sorta thing, in which case, don't let me stop you!
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2021 11:59 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

Read the comment I made under the Original Sin thing. Sin isn't what you think it is.


"Sin" is PRECISEDLY what I think it is.

"Sin" is something a human does, purposefully, which offends that person's god.

If you think it is something else...YOU ae the one who does not know what it is.

Quote:
The sooner you read my post there, the better you'd understand me, and the less we'd argue. Unless you thrive on that sorta thing, in which case, don't let me stop you!



I understand you already, Bulma, perhaps more than you realize I do.

Arguing (discussing differences) is one of the main objectives of Internet forum participation. I have no problem with it...I suspect neither do you. I enjoy it...I suspect you do also.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2021 03:21 pm
Frank claimed:
Quote:
Arguing (discussing differences) is one of the main objectives of Internet forum participation. I have no problem with it...
That is until someone challenges one of his dogmas with an argument that he can’t refute.

#ignore
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2021 02:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
Any one who enjoys and loves life as much as I do, looks forward to enjoying and loving life into the everlasting. To one like myself, there is no such thing as death, only life everlasting: unlike those poor souls, who believe that the death of the body in which they developed is the end of their life.

Because that which the mind believes, is exactly what the disembodied mind receives.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2021 05:56 am
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:

Any one who enjoys and loves life as much as I do, looks forward to enjoying and loving life into the everlasting. To one like myself, there is no such thing as death, only life everlasting: unlike those poor souls, who believe that the death of the body in which they developed is the end of their life.

Because that which the mind believes, is exactly what the disembodied mind receives.


Oh, I see. You also blindly guess that whatever you blindly guess...is what is the REALITY.

Okay. Whatever floats your boat!

https://media3.giphy.com/media/o7mdvssg0Oov5iQDIZ/200.gif
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2021 08:08 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
"Sin" is PRECISEDLY what I think it is.


And this would be because you're an accredited expert on all matters of spiritual concern, right? You know PRECISELY you say. Bible scholar? Theologian? Morality expert? Some kinda guru?

Or is it because you're an 85-year-old who has never been called out on maybe having a distorted knowledge of things that people who actually spend time studying religious texts still struggle with?
I suppose if you had more interest in Jainism or Buddhism, we'd hear you tell about how you know the Buddha is a god (they actually tell followers to kill Buddha if you see visions of him on the road) or that Jains worship the same god as Islam (they don't). Or something screwy on Shintoism. But because you only pretend to know about Christianity and Judaism, we get to put up with your "knowledge."

Not only is it obvious you didn't even skim the post I made on original sin, but you apparently "know it all" about regular sin. Yes, yes, sin is "displeasing some god" which is why you don't accept sin. Where is this definition from, a dictionary ? Yes, because a non-theological source would answer such questions correctly.

Actually sin is defined as "missing the mark", what you are doing right now.
https://viralbeliever.com/definition-sin/
Sin is also defined as separation from God. And we are assured that nothing can do so (I think it's Romans 8). Meaning sin is actually perception of separation, rather than separation itself.
https://www.gotquestions.org/does-sin-separate-us-from-God.html
Sin is defined a number of ways (including disobeying the law) but of course, yes, only YOU have this figured out.
(Or maybe you don't?)

The Bible has over 613 laws.
https://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html

But the New Testament goes as far as calling the law a curse. So answer this question: if seen is really about disobeying God, why are there so many laws that you can't possibly keep them all? And why is the law called a curse? This cannot be the right answer for the definition of sin. That, or it is the right answer, but for 85 years, you have judged what God wants wrong.
----------------------------------
Uhhhh, you don't understand me better than I think. You understand some stereotype of Christianity, and it has been patently obvious for about a year that you have "missed the mark". If you actually bothered to understand me, we'd be in a real conversation by now. Instead we're just kinda "Oh you don't understand, but I do because..." because what you're older? Yeah, you're senile.

I actually find that sort of arguing annoying. I like to write books, make video games, and I like to draw. I like to write interesting ideas and bounce them off people, even if such ideas would be considered crazy (for this reason, I accept a number of ancient aliens conspiracies, as even if they aren't true, they are incredibly interesting and could be true under the right conditions). I like to argue only with people who have an intelligent reason why I am wrong. When they say, "But here you've contradicted yourself. It should be this, that, and that," this is an intelligent debate. I like a conversation that allows me to question what I've thought, revise it, and come up with a new idea.
I loathe talking to people who I've explained the same concept four or five times, they don't offer any real debate, just "look at how stupid you are for believing that." Ad hominem is about the lowest form of debate, sorta "I haven't got any real argument here, but you're wrong and illogical (even though I haven't given any good logic). " I don't like re-explaining things to people who don't get me. Or to people who don't understand symbols or metaphor and keep saying they don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah, cuz you never bothered.
That gives me no pleasure, and it feels like I failed to explain. It's vaguely like sex when you're mute and want him to rub your clitoris, but instead he does anal. It's frustrating and infuriating to have someone incapable of understanding. Total turn-off.

You literally proved that you don't understand the first thing about me.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2021 11:16 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

Quote:
"Sin" is PRECISEDLY what I think it is.


And this would be because you're an accredited expert on all matters of spiritual concern, right? You know PRECISELY you say. Bible scholar? Theologian? Morality expert? Some kinda guru?

Or is it because you're an 85-year-old who has never been called out on maybe having a distorted knowledge of things that people who actually spend time studying religious texts still struggle with?
I suppose if you had more interest in Jainism or Buddhism, we'd hear you tell about how you know the Buddha is a god (they actually tell followers to kill Buddha if you see visions of him on the road) or that Jains worship the same god as Islam (they don't). Or something screwy on Shintoism. But because you only pretend to know about Christianity and Judaism, we get to put up with your "knowledge."

Not only is it obvious you didn't even skim the post I made on original sin, but you apparently "know it all" about regular sin. Yes, yes, sin is "displeasing some god" which is why you don't accept sin. Where is this definition from, a dictionary ? Yes, because a non-theological source would answer such questions correctly.

Actually sin is defined as "missing the mark", what you are doing right now.
https://viralbeliever.com/definition-sin/
Sin is also defined as separation from God. And we are assured that nothing can do so (I think it's Romans 8). Meaning sin is actually perception of separation, rather than separation itself.
https://www.gotquestions.org/does-sin-separate-us-from-God.html
Sin is defined a number of ways (including disobeying the law) but of course, yes, only YOU have this figured out.
(Or maybe you don't?)

The Bible has over 613 laws.
https://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html

But the New Testament goes as far as calling the law a curse. So answer this question: if seen is really about disobeying God, why are there so many laws that you can't possibly keep them all? And why is the law called a curse? This cannot be the right answer for the definition of sin. That, or it is the right answer, but for 85 years, you have judged what God wants wrong.
----------------------------------
Uhhhh, you don't understand me better than I think. You understand some stereotype of Christianity, and it has been patently obvious for about a year that you have "missed the mark". If you actually bothered to understand me, we'd be in a real conversation by now. Instead we're just kinda "Oh you don't understand, but I do because..." because what you're older? Yeah, you're senile.

I actually find that sort of arguing annoying. I like to write books, make video games, and I like to draw. I like to write interesting ideas and bounce them off people, even if such ideas would be considered crazy (for this reason, I accept a number of ancient aliens conspiracies, as even if they aren't true, they are incredibly interesting and could be true under the right conditions). I like to argue only with people who have an intelligent reason why I am wrong. When they say, "But here you've contradicted yourself. It should be this, that, and that," this is an intelligent debate. I like a conversation that allows me to question what I've thought, revise it, and come up with a new idea.
I loathe talking to people who I've explained the same concept four or five times, they don't offer any real debate, just "look at how stupid you are for believing that." Ad hominem is about the lowest form of debate, sorta "I haven't got any real argument here, but you're wrong and illogical (even though I haven't given any good logic). " I don't like re-explaining things to people who don't get me. Or to people who don't understand symbols or metaphor and keep saying they don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah, cuz you never bothered.
That gives me no pleasure, and it feels like I failed to explain. It's vaguely like sex when you're mute and want him to rub your clitoris, but instead he does anal. It's frustrating and infuriating to have someone incapable of understanding. Total turn-off.

You literally proved that you don't understand the first thing about me.



Tell ya one thing about you that you DO NOT know...you are one of the most full of **** people ever to post in A2K...and that is an almost unimaginable goal to have achieved.

You do not know what you are talking about...and you ramble so much, you even manage to screw up the **** you think you know.

Anyway...the only thing "sin" can be is something (a thought, word, or deed) done by a human that offends that human's god.

By all means, go with whatever rationalization you prefer. You come off as kinda cute when you do.

I love discussing these things with you...which is why I do it.

You claim to loathe discussing them with me...which makes me wonder why you do it so often and with such intensity.

Perhaps it is because you are a jerk. That is not meant as an insult...just suggesting something about yourself that you apparently do not know.

Let's talk some more, Bulma. You've made so many silly, incorrect statements in this quoted post, that I have not bothered to address...you have lots of areas to explore.

Looking forward to our continued discussion.

https://c.tenor.com/9hILRfSJQCQAAAAd/emoji-blinking-eyes.gif

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2021 11:34 am
Frank said:
Quote:
Anyway...the only thing "sin" can be is something (a thought, word, or deed) done by a human that offends that human's god.

Why did he change it from the previous time he defined sin?
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2021 04:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Oh, I see. You also blindly guess that whatever you blindly guess...is what is the REALITY.


Nah mate, my beliefs are not blind guess's, unlike yourself who have confessed time after time that you have no beliefs whatsoever, so every thing you say, in not what you believe, but simply just another of your blind guess's.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2021 05:42 pm
@The Anointed,
all beliefs are blind guesses when they are not supported by evidence. ****, you believe that dinosaurs are lizards when all evidence says youre looney.
In the US, conservative ying - yangs "believe' they know what theyre talking about regarding liberals, and that too is mostly bullshit.

Keep playin with yerself ole coot, youre dim as a Uv light.
The Anointed
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2021 10:50 pm
@farmerman,
They reckon if dinosaurs were still in existence today, they would be classified as reptiles under the sub-tribe Archosaurs, that also includes crocodiles. The pelvic structures in dinosaur skeletons resembled those found in crocodiles and lizards, the main ancient reptiles that gave rise to dinosaurs were not the "bird hipped" but the "lizard hipped," and they moved similarly, additionally, dinosaurs laid eggs and built nests just like modern-day reptiles.

Accept the fact mate, that there is not enough fossil evidence to prove the absolute truth concerning the creation as it is today, through the process of evolution from what was in the distant past of millions of years ago.

What you believe today, in fifty years, will be proven to have been wrong.

You can rant and rave all you like young fellow, but the scriptures say that the spiritual Godhead of the earthly reptiles that walked on their back legs, who deceived Eve in paradise, and who was then cursed by ‘Jahel’ the Lord to the glory of ‘EL’ the creator, was cast down to the earth where his earthly body now crawls in the dust.

Catch ya later kid.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2021 03:50 am
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:

Quote:
Oh, I see. You also blindly guess that whatever you blindly guess...is what is the REALITY.


Nah mate, my beliefs are not blind guess's...


Your "beliefs" that a god exists...and your "beliefs" about the nature of the god you blindly guess exist...ARE nothing more than blind guesses. You may not be intelligent enough to realize that...or you may be too frightened of the god to ever acknowledge that...

...but that is so.


Quote:
...unlike yourself who have confessed time after time that you have no beliefs whatsoever, so every thing you say, in not what you believe, but simply just another of your blind guess's.


You are correct. I do not do "believing" on the question of the existence of gods...which is to say I do not blindly guess that they exist...or that they do not exist. And if I ever did, I would call them guesses. I would not, as you do, call them "beliefs" and then expect people to "respect" my blind guesses because of that disguise.

Sorry you are unable to understand that.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2021 06:36 am
@Frank Apisa,
Looks at creepy smiling emoji thing, and reads nothing of the post.

Ewww stop that!
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2021 07:25 am
@farmerman,
Uhhh what evidence would this be?

Most of the birdlike dinosaurs have a problem. That is that either they do not look anything like previous dinosaurs, or they are frauds, as was the case of the Archaeopteryx. Face it, if dinosaurs existed at all (I've had people build a case before where "dinosaur bones" are actually mashed together fish bones with some elephant stuff or whatever mixed in) they weren't any sort of bird. Aside from their feet, most of their skeleton is reptilian not birdlike. Ditto for internal organs.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Z67H2aJ4ugc/UuBm4zLPF1I/AAAAAAAAAQs/LD7UEAeOGy0/s1600/skeleton+reptile.jpg
https://www.bronzeart.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/DSC07669a.jpg

Now which does this look more like?

https://edge.alluremedia.com.au/m/g/2017/01/iStock-518587064.jpg

Even with upright dinosaur bones, the long spine and the lack of wingspan is a giveaway.

When I say utopianism, what I mean is what Kant calls the universalized maxim. When we impose our values or dreams on an entire society. These ying-yings as you put them are typically people in flyover states or places that never get to vote because the vote is based on what is it, 285 points or so? Does Hawaii or Alaska ever get their votes heard? As such, their states usually wind up with small towns getting the shaft, while liberals have their do nothing bullshit jobs "I'm a marine botanist and my job allows me to check results on my cellphone." Meanwhile, these 'ying-yangs' drive halfway across the country in their trucks in order to provide them food, clothing, and other resources.
I think they know exactly what you're like. Now, suppose everyone was liberal. Well, we're already seeing it with people checking out because of mask mandates. The truck lines are failing. If everyone did this, you could tell all about how environmentally conscious you are but everyone would try to one-up you. Meanwhile, coal doesn't get to the factory because gasp it pollutes so much, clothing, food, and merchandise doesn't get made, delivered, or sold. You're naked, cold, and probably homeless.
Care to guess what society is like when most people are conservative? Well we've already seen it. People work, go to church, and there aren't any major protests. In most small towns, there are festivals when the farming is done. It's quiet, it's not as technological as urban areas, but people are hardly deprived. They have each other.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2021 09:19 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

Looks at creepy smiling emoji thing, and reads nothing of the post.

Ewww stop that!


You are a pathetic spokesperson for what I assume to be your position. I am not entirely sure of your position, because you are one of the most incoherent posters ever in this forum.

I'd be astonished if you could give a single coherent statement about the most significant part of your overall position on the issue of whether or not any gods exist...and then defend it.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2021 12:37 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
DAmn, you are easy to trick. id you know that the plastic bird "model" has no wing terminii and no hips?? You relize that your exmples are the frauds??

So you say that "Its been proven that archeoptryx was a fraud" WHERE ID YOU GET THIS FINDING????????.

I would really like to learn something new today. ou certain that you even have a clue to a clue as to what youre head is up???



 

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