6
   

The Human Race is doing just fine!

 
 
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2021 10:24 am
Human beings (as homo sapiens with language) first appeared on Earth about 50,000 years ago. At this point, humans were physically very much the same as we are now (with the same brain capacity and physical characteristics as we have now). We were weak and hairless compared to the other primates, and all we had going for us was big brains and the ability to walk pretty far).

Life for early humans was very difficult People lived 40 years or so (if they were lucky enough to live in a place with good resources. There was no idea of government or ethics... the people who could fight the best made the rules. There was no modern medicine, if you got a ruptured appendix, you died. If your kid got a bad ear infection, they died. Women didn't have rights. Workers didn't have rights. And rights didn't matter, people had to spend the great majority of their waking hours working just to get enough food to survive.

Here we are now, so many years later.

- We have cut child mortality from 30-40% to less than 1% (even in developing countries)
- We have more than doubled human life expectancy and can now cure formerly deadly diseases with little effort.
- We have the lowest number of people dying of famine than at any time in human history. We can store food, and we can distribute food internationally, and we can grow food with a greater efficiency that ever thought possible.
- In the past 200 years, we have reached a nearly complete global understanding that slavery is wrong for the first time in human history.
- We have developed ideas about woman's rights, and labor rights, and LGBT rights and elder rights.

There is a political need to find thing that are going wrong... if things are going well then it is hard to justify extremism. Surely people will bring up our current challenges (global climate change for example), and I am not saying that the human race doesn't have challenges.

But if you look at the facts. The human race is doing just fine and has made fantastic progress in the post couple of thousand years. There is no better time to be a human being than in the 21st century.
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2021 10:32 am
maxdancona wrote:
- We have the lowest number of people dying of famine than at any time in human history. We can store food, and we can distribute food internationally, and we can grow food with a greater efficiency that ever thought possible.

This system is not as robust as I might like though. If the entire planet loses an entire growing season, most people will starve to death.

It is possible for the entire planet to lose an entire growing season (nuclear winter, for example, or a large comet impact).


maxdancona wrote:
There is no better time to be a human being than in the 21st century.

It is likely that the future will be even better.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 03:25 am
This is just a rehash of a previous thread. maxdancona's a real cheerleader for anthropocentrism.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.cRe-p0v4KNm_WfdgqJybYAHaE7%26pid%3DApi&f=1
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F50%2F90%2Ffa%2F5090fad6fcbdc4d8f975ed7bb90406e4.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fqph.fs.quoracdn.net%2Fmain-qimg-909a74e83b1e8d91689f8f572aa7efda&f=1&nofb=1
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.5mC3YwGhHCpS6pJJse6BBwHaE0%26pid%3DApi&f=1
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.MXVvjgoBZA0hWGN1FSoguAHaE8%26pid%3DApi&f=1
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi1.wp.com%2Ffourfacades.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F09%2Fpexels-aleksandar-pasaric-3164031.jpg%3Ffit%3D1200%252C800%26ssl%3D1&f=1&nofb=1
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.lj2j-mdpZyaLqj2AHyUdOwHaDm%26pid%3DApi&f=1
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimg-aws.ehowcdn.com%2F877x500p%2Fphotos.demandstudios.com%2Fgetty%2Farticle%2F153%2F113%2Fdv118022.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
Yeah, we're doing just fine...
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 04:11 am
@hightor,
agree
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 05:30 am
@hightor,
Ok I see a photo of a random garbage dump (with no captions). What looks like clear cutting. A couple of slums. A couple of garbage strewn waterways. Some barrels and some dead fish.

I am going to guess that Hightor didn't take any of these pictures. In fact, I am going to guess that Hightor can't even say where any of these pictures were taken. He is just finding really bad pictures out of context. I glad this makes Mame happy, but there isn't even a point here.

No one is arguing that trash strewn waterways are a good thing. However, I went kayaking in a very nice river last weekend, it was pristine with lots of wildlife to be seen.

If Hightor is living anywhere near either of these slums, than he may have a point and at least can talk about the social issues involved. Where I live, and where most of the humans in the world live, doesn't look anything like that.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 05:37 am
@maxdancona,
I am pointing out that the human race keeps progressing, and life as a human being (in general for the vast majority of humans) is better than at any other time in history.

- Children are far less likely to die than at any time in history.
- People live far longer than at any time in history.
- People are less likely to die of starvation than at any time in history.
- People are less likely to die in war than at any time in history.
- People are less likely to be living in slavery than at any time in history.
- People are working less and being more productive than at any time in history.
- Women and people in the LGBT community have more rights than at any time in history.
- Fewer people died in covid-19 than at any other global pandemic in history (look at the numbers from the 1918 flu, the London Plague or the Black Death for example).

If you want to make a "Humans are Bad" argument, I have nothing for you. Whether or not human beings are worthy to exist as a species is more a value judgement than a general argument. I happen to believe that human beings are good. This may be biased since I am a human being, but I have also met a lot of human beings, and I have in general I like them.

I am making the argument that humans are progressing
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 05:41 am
@maxdancona,
Actually, I think you have a blind spot, Max. You happen to live (as I do) where there are beautiful and plentiful resources. But many of the world doesn't, and what you don't see is under the surface.

Canada was recently humiliated by the Phillippines for some company dumping their garbage on their property: "The Canada–Philippines waste dispute was an international row over mislabeled Canadian garbage shipped to Manila by a recycling company. The 103 shipping containers that left from Vancouver in 2013–14 were labeled as recyclable plastics; they instead contained household waste. The intricacies of international treaties, the private company involved, and red tape complicated the situation through 2019 when Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte, began threatening Canada with ultimata. On May 30, 2019, 69 containers of Canadian trash began their trip home."

This is just another example of a 'rich' country exploiting a non-rich country.

But the issue of pollutions of various types doesn't end with garbage. Go do a google search about how whales have died having ingested plastics, fish and birds have died being tied up in fishing lines, etc., how many mammals have suffocated in oil spills .... and the list goes on. We do NOT live in a clean world and no animal on earth is responsible for the state we're in except HUMANS. And this doesn't even embark on the negative effect of pesticides, etc.

Mame
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 05:47 am
QUOTING MAX: "I am pointing out that the human race keeps progressing, and life as a human being (in general for the vast majority of humans) is better than at any other time in history.

NOT WHEN YOUR TWO POWERS IN GOVERNMENT CANNOT EVEN AGREE ON BASICS AND WORK TOGETHER!!! YOUR GOVERNMENT SYSTEM IS A BLOODY DISASTER.

- Children are far less likely to die than at any time in history. MAYBE IN YOUR COUNTRY.
- People are less likely to die of starvation than at any time in history. MAYBE IN YOUR COUNTRY.
- People are less likely to die in war than at any time in history. MAYBE IN YOUR COUNTRY.
- People are less likely to be living in slavery than at any time in history. MAYBE IN YOUR COUNTRY.
- People are working less and being more productive than at any time in history. MAYBE IN YOUR COUNTRY.
- Women and people in the LGBT community have more rights than at any time in history. MAYBE IN YOUR COUNTRY.
- Fewer people died in covid-19 than at any other global pandemic in history (look at the numbers from the 1918 flu, the London Plague or the Black Death for example). MAYBE IN YOUR COUNTRY.

I am making the argument that humans are progressing "- YEAH, TOWARDS SELF-ANNIHILATION.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 05:52 am
@Mame,
Let me clarify that. I thought it was obvious, but I guess I should have made it clear. Each of these points is looking at the entire world as a whole. All of these things are true in the vast majority of countries in the world from North America, to Asia to Africa to every other populated continent.

- Children are far less likely to die than at any time in history.
- People are less likely to die of starvation than at any time in history.
- People are less likely to die in war than at any time in history.
- People are less likely to be living in slavery than at any time in history.
- People are working less and being more productive than at any time in history.
- Women and people in the LGBT community have more rights than at any time in history.
- Fewer people died in covid-19 than at any other global pandemic in history (look at the numbers from the 1918 flu, the London Plague or the Black Death for example).

You can find a few exceptions in a few war torn countries; Libya, Afghanistan, Sudan for example. There are a handful of countries with severe poverty without war (Haiti for example). Even there life expectancy is historically high. I am not saying the worst exceptions are acceptable, I personally think we should be giving more aid to Haiti.

But even considering the hardest hit, most impovrished countries. Humanity is going great as a whole.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 05:54 am
@Mame,
Quote:
Actually, I think you have a blind spot, Max.


maxdancona only cares about human "progress". If it's at the expense of other life forms, so what? They should've evolved like WE did.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 06:01 am
@hightor,
Fair point Hightor.

I believe that the life of human beings is more important than the life of any other species. This does not mean that I don't believe in conservation. I want want humans to set aside parks for lions. I want them to limit human activity in protected regions for lions. I want money spent to protect lions. I want laws strengthened to protect lions.

But let's consider the life of a lion against the life of a human. If I have to shoot a lion in order to save a human life... I am going to make that choice without a second thought. To me human life is more important than animal life.

This is a value question, probably not worth arguing. But yes, you have me pegged on this point.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 06:02 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Let me clarify that. I thought it was obvious, but I guess I should have made it clear. Each of these points is looking at the entire world as a whole. All of these things are true in the vast majority of countries in the world from North America, to Asia to Africa to every other populated continent.

- Children are far less likely to die than at any time in history. YOU THINK THIS IS TRUE IN ALL AFRICAN COUNTRIES, LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, ETC.?
- People are less likely to die of starvation than at any time in history. YOU THINK THIS IS TRUE IN ALL AFRICAN COUNTRIES, LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, ETC.?
- People are less likely to die in war than at any time in history. YOU THINK THIS IS TRUE IN ALL AFRICAN COUNTRIES, LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, ETC.?
- People are less likely to be living in slavery than at any time in history. WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT CHINA NOW.
- People are working less and being more productive than at any time in history.YOU THINK THIS IS TRUE IN ALL AFRICAN COUNTRIES, LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, ETC.?
- Women and people in the LGBT community have more rights than at any time in history.YOU THINK THIS IS TRUE IN ALL AFRICAN COUNTRIES, MIDDLE EASTERN, LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, ETC.?
- Fewer people died in covid-19 than at any other global pandemic in history (look at the numbers from the 1918 flu, the London Plague or the Black Death for example). WE DON'T HAVE THE FINAL OR TRUE NUMBERS YET.

But even considering the hardest hit, most impovrished countries. Humanity is going great as a whole.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 06:03 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:

But if you look at the facts. The human race is doing just fine and has made fantastic progress in the post couple of thousand years. There is no better time to be a human being than in the 21st century


Mostly its all been done at the expense of the planets ecosystem. If we do our work just right, we have the ability to turn vast expanses of our homw plant into non productive wastelands.
I live in Pennylvania, the state with the second longst number of natural tream miles of all the other states except Alaska.
We have almot 85000 stream and river miles of which 1/3 of the stream miles are lifeless die to minerals extraction (ACID MINDRAINAGE FROM HIGH SULFUR COAL)

Our resources will be tipped toward a pretty frightful direction if we continue to ignore Global Warming.

We will , of course tip backwards after the entire norther Atlantic STREAM is full of Ice Cold Fresh Meltware. Then we will welcome a new Ice Age.

I really think we can do ourslves in quite nicely and fairly quickly i do..
I agreed with your feelings about specific ELEMENTAL resources, 9like phosphorus) but disagreed mightily where you think Ehrlich's two "Bomb" books were crap. Most science agreed with him despite his racism and a couple incorrect predictions (As I said, even DARWIN was dead wrong about a major conclusion in all his 6 editions of "...Origin of Species" DEAD WRONG or not DArwin is responsible for probably the greatest idea of the last millennium


Im challenging you to actually READ paul and Ann Ehrlich's books and see if you can till assert how you think they were all wet.

I also dont buy your "Im OK we're Ok" POV. We can lose almost all of our C3 plants in less than 200 years and thatll beintresting for the way we eat.(Maybe Soylent Green will be in our future )
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 06:15 am
@farmerman,
The hardest thing to predict is the future (I just found out that this is actually a Dutch Provide that predates Yogi Berra by centuries... fun fact, but irrelevant).

We are all in agreement (I think) that Humanity needs to respond robustly to global climate change. You can argue that we should be doing more, but you can't argue that there isn't a global movement to address climate change both at a citizen and governmental level. The global mobilization to change behavior and lower emissions is unprecedented in human history. You can argue that it isn't sufficient, and that we should be doing more. But step back and tell me another time when humanity rallied together to face a common challenge.

My argument is based on the present. It is pretty clear that life on Earth for human beings is right now better than it has ever been in health, in food security, in productivity, in human rights and in many other areas.

Predictions of imminent doom are nothing new. Prophets and prognosticators have been predicting the end of civilization for at least the past 4000 years. Some day they may get it right, maybe it is this time.

But looking just at the data for the present ... human beings have done pretty damn good for ourselves. It is my hope that this continues for at least the next couple thousand years.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 06:20 am
@Mame,
Yes Mame,

This is true for the vast majority of countries with a very few exceptions (i.e. less than 6 that include war torn countries and a couple of very impoverished countries).

This includes African countries and Latin American Countries. I have visited both Africa and Latin America. What you see on TV doesn't represent what life is really like in either of these places. If you view Africa and Latin America as people languishing in squalor... you have a wrong impression.

Mame
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 06:22 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


But looking just at the data for the present ... human beings have done pretty damn good for ourselves. It is my hope that this continues for at least the next couple thousand years.


Why do you care how long it continues? You won't be here.

Your two political parties can't agree on anything and the one is so screwed I'd be surprised if the USA is ever considered a world leader again.

Actually, humankind should be ashamed of how it has treated this earth and ALL its inhabitants. We've done a miserable job of overseeing it.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 06:24 am
@maxdancona,
youre entire argument is solely anthropogenic for solely anthropocentric mileposts. We are the only species who can take it all out in a fashion that will lave the planet devoid of vasts scads of species and the planets chemical and biological support systems.

0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 06:26 am
@maxdancona,
Hello? I've been to Latin America, several countries, many times. A shower in El Gigante, Nica (among other places) is a pvc pipe coming out of the wall giving only cold water. Don't think Mexico is the only place in Latin America.

Some/many places in Africa are even worse, according to friends who have lived/visited there.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 06:32 am
@Mame,
Quote:
Actually, humankind should be ashamed of how it has treated this earth and ALL its inhabitants. We've done a miserable job of overseeing it.


I accept that, however in our defense...

Human beings are the only species that shows any interest in protecting our environment. There is no evidence of locusts forming a group to say "maybe we shouldn't eat ALL of the leaves"... locusts protesting the impact locusts have on the environment. Big Cats (lions etc) hunt for sport, so do Orcas and Dolphins. Species have many time hunted other species out of existence with no humans involved.

For you, as a human being, so raise alarm at the impact human beings are having on their environment is pretty awesome.

There is no individual of any species on Earth other than humans who have done this. This is a uniquely human trait.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2021 06:33 am
@Mame,
Max's argumnts miss several points , mostly with hi measuring mirror as the only ruler. Remember, we caused the developmnt of plague, yet it took us about 500 years to del with it.

Sir Richard Leaky;s views on the 6th extinction and carrying capacity of th planet is kinda Malthusian (Just like the Ehrlich;s observations)
Doesnt mean that they er wrong you know.
0 Replies
 
 

 
  1. Forums
  2. » The Human Race is doing just fine!
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 07/28/2021 at 10:22:14