6
   

The Human Race is doing just fine!

 
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 11:38 am
@farmerman,
I think that humanity routinely suffers from the tragedy of the commons. One feature of that is what looks like a short term win becomes a long term loss. On a local level, we've stopped some of the worse abuses in some parts of the world. In developed countries there are restrictions that have restored air and water quality and slowed pollution but those problems have just moved to somewhere else in the world. The challenge going forward will be to not act at the state or national level but at the global level. I fear we as a species will not have sufficient motivation to do something like that until the effects of not doing that are overwhelmingly obvious.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 11:46 am
@Linkat,
somebody here doesn't like whale poop
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 11:51 am
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

maxdancona wrote:


When you read Jane Goodall and other talking about Chimapanzees waging war on each other, it is hard to not connect their behavior with similar human actions in war. Chimapanzees kill children of their eneies with glee, they celebrate bloodshed, they take and kill prisoners.




Chimps and apes do this to continue their blood line. You are attributing human emotions onto animals.

I actually not only have read Jane Goodall, but have met her in person and have heard her speak. They appear human like in many ways - but the killing is instinctive to promote their bloodline. You attribute a glee look of an animal perhaps their screaming sounding like they are celebrating - but they are not human and you cannot give human attributes to animals.

Even Jane Goodall states that this is evolutionarily and adaptive not cruelty. There is also speculation that these "wars" are a result of limited forests - due to man destroying their natural habit - that they fight to survive due to limited resources - this is for their natural survival not to be cruel.


I don't buy it, Linkat. The narrative is that humans are evil, but animals aren't evil when they behave in the same way. I don't see how this distinction makes sense.

Chimpanzees and humans are closely related genetically. We have much of the same evolutionary history (the same evolutionary ancestors) and share much of the same genes. You say that warlike agression in Chimapanzees is instinctive and adaptive and based over scarce resources.

How is this different than in humans?

Humans have an additional capacity for symbolic thought. But the aggression, anger, brutality and revenge shown by these chimpanzees in a time of war makes perfect sense for a creature that is a close genetic relative to human beings.

What exactly do you think it is that makes human beings more evil than their primate cousins when they present the same behavior?
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 12:09 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The narrative is that humans are evil...

No, the narrative is that human beings can be evil, in thought and in deed, but have a choice in the matter.
Quote:
...but animals aren't evil when they behave in the same way.

They don't behave in the same way. The behaviors are related but the moral conscience that characterizes human behavior doesn't exist in other animals and they can't be considered "evil" for acting instinctively.
Quote:
How is this different than in humans?

Animals don't chronicle their experiences — they don't remember the Alamo, the Longest Day, or 1066. They don't have teachings which were developed to counter the destructive effects of instinctual savagery. They don't celebrate peacemakers nor do they have the choice of pacifism.

You're continuing the same idiotic line of thought you exhibited in the "Animals are assholes" thread even thought you admitted it was ridiculous.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  4  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 12:27 pm
@maxdancona,
You are reading way to much into this - animals do not have the capacity to reason this out - they are acting instinctively and to protect themselves/bloodline.

People have the capacity to think and reason things out. A human can reason out - if I take a magnifying glass and burn an ant is a mean thing to do - yet they still do this. A chimp in ganging up on another group is not able to reason out - I am hurting these guys so maybe we can all join together and sing kumbaya instead of they are instinctively trying to protect their group.

Perhaps evil isn't the right term - but the difference is the human can reason this out and therefore is in a position of making a more "humane" decision. They can decide to act humanely, but yet often times they do not. That is what gives the appearance of a human being cruel - because they are in a position to understand it is cruel.

Quote:
Chimpanzees and humans are closely related genetically. We have much of the same evolutionary history (the same evolutionary ancestors) and share much of the same genes. You say that warlike agression in Chimapanzees is instinctive and adaptive and based over scarce resources.


Yes as do scientists that study Chimps.

Quote:
But the aggression, anger, brutality and revenge shown by these chimpanzees in a time of war makes perfect sense for a creature that is a close genetic relative to human beings.


That is you attributing human traits to an animal. How do you know the animal is angry; how do you know this is revenge? Those are human traits and you assume a wild animal reacts and has the capacity for these emotions. Qhy would someone like Jane Goodall and other scientists who studied Chimps for years and years state that is is instinctive and adaptive
behavior from their studies, but you believe otherwise. I will trust the scientists over someone like you who has more than likely just watched National Geographic images of these?

maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 12:57 pm
@Linkat,
You have it backwards, Linkat. I am not "attributing human traits to animal". I am attributing animal traits to humans.

When I feel threatened, my brain floods with neurochemicals designed to get me ready for a flight or fight response. My cognitive function shuts down, my emotions and anger rise (this allows me to make quick decisions in a high risk situation which has had evolutionary advantage). This is a well known and well studied reaction that is not uniquely human although many decent and educated human beings experience rage. The brain chemstry is the same in humans as it is in other high order animals.

Humans are animals and we are subject to the same evolutionary instincts as any other animals. Many animals show agression, sacrifice to protect their young, have a sex drive, I don't see how these traits common to many animals would be any different. The "joy of the hunt" has to do with adrenaline and brain chemicals, the brain circuits to enjoy killing developed in cats, and whales and wolves is innate. Why wouldn't it be the same in humans.

It is well know that decent humans, when faced with danger, can revert to animal behavior that is often quite brutal. The instinct to expand our territory and defend our group and eliminate threats that champanzees and wolves and bears show are also present in humans.

Humans have this additional capacity to think symbolically and consider the meaning of their actions. Sometimes humans use this added capacity.

That doesn't change the fact that humans are primates with the same basic instincts that we evolved along with our primate cousins.
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 01:08 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I am not "attributing human traits to animal". I am attributing animal traits to humans.

You're attributing a human trait, moral responsibility, to animals when you accuse them of committing "evil".
Linkat
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 01:14 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You have it backwards, Linkat. I am not "attributing human traits to animal". I am attributing animal traits to humans.

Humans are animals and we are subject to the same evolutionary instincts as any other animals. Many animals show agression, sacrifice to protect their young, have a sex drive, I don't see how these traits common to many animals would be any different. The "joy of the hunt" has to do with adrenaline and brain chemicals, the brain circuits to enjoy killing developed in cats, and whales and wolves is innate. Why wouldn't it be the same in humans.

Humans have this additional capacity. That doesn't change the fact that humans are primates with the same basic instincts that we evolved along with our primate cousins.


Notice in my wording I did not state aggression (but it looks like you changed what you had there originally and caught your error) – I stated revenge and anger. Aggression is not a trait or an emotion but how one acts. Of course they can act aggressive – that is normal behavior to protect oneself, group and bloodline. You are correct that is an animal behavior and I never said otherwise.

As far as your change:
Quote:
When I feel threatened, my brain floods with neurochemicals designed to get me ready for a flight or fight response. My cognitive function shuts down, my emotions and anger rise (this allows me to make quick decisions in a high risk situation which has had evolutionary advantage). This is a well known and well studied reaction that is not uniquely human although many decent and educated human beings experience rage. The brain chemstry is the same in humans as it is in other high order animals.



Humans have instincts of course, but they also have the capacity to reason out and understand although my instinct might be to run when I heard that loud boom, it could be anything so therefore I am not just going to run away out into the street where there is traffic even though my instinct may tell me to do so. Unlike your dog and that is why you keep your dog leashed. That is the difference. You know as a human that sometimes your instincts if you were simply to follow them without thinking might actually kill you.

Quote:
It is well know that decent humans, when faced with danger, can revert to animal behavior that is often quite brutal. The instinct to expand our territory and defend our group and eliminate threats that champanzees and wolves and bears show are also present in humans.


True but just as often people are known to do the opposite. Many people would not do this; many people would actually try to reason with another in such a situation and sometimes that is the best option.

You have a gun at the back of your head is the fight or flight as your instinct would tell you the best option? No you are more likely to get your head blown off. You sweat and you comply because you know that gun will get you before you make a move. An animal would not know to do this.

Humans have these instincts but they also have the capacity to think it out and actually make the most intelligent move.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 01:15 pm
@hightor,
I don't accept that "moral responsibility" is a human trait, at least not in an absolute sense. It sounds like you are setting up a system of moral absolutism (which I reject). But that is a completely different topic.

The ability to think symbolically in order to create societies and construct systems of morality seems to be a uniquely human trait.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 01:20 pm
@Linkat,
I agree with most of this...

Vengence and anger don't involve symbolic thinking, nor are they unique to being human. I am not sure you were implying they were, but the instinctual reaction of a human who is threatened or hurt is very much the same as the instinctual reaction of a dog, or a wolf, or a Chimpanzee. These are traits that evolved because they can be beneficial.

I agree that human beings have the ability to moderate their instincts.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 01:29 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I don't accept that "moral responsibility" is a human trait...

It isn't — not in the sense of it being a capacity that all humans are born with and exhibit throughout their lives, so I worded that incorrectly. But the expectation that other members of the species will act in a moral manner is uniquely human, but it requires socialization. It's not instinctual.
Quote:
The ability to think symbolically in order to create societies and construct systems of morality seems to be a uniquely human trait.

I agree.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 03:26 pm
@hightor,
as is, the ability to recognize ones reflection in mirror.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2021 05:07 pm
@engineer,
I want to encourage people to look at a global view. Look objectively at trends in the data. The objective facts are quite encouraging in most areas.

Deaths from air pollution, when you look globally, have fallen in the past 30 years. This is a not a political narrative, it is the actual data.

Life expectancy has increaseed in the past 30 years. Homocide rates have decreased (when viewed globally).

There is a political motive for pessimism. But the actual data is encouraging in many, if not most, areas of human life.

Is anyone here willing to to celebrate (or even admit) the good news.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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