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Will the followers of Islam do this?

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Steve 41oo
 
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 05:02 pm
It seems the type of Islamist most likely to commit a terrorist outrage are young male converts to Islam, or "ordinary" Muslims who suddenly become very religious in their teenage years.

Therefore what I propose is to reqire by law the following affirmation on becoming a Muslim

Holding a Koran in the Mosque with the Iman and congregation assembled:

"I............before Allah and by help of the Prophet (pbuh etc), of my own free will, do solemnly swear to uphold Islam as a religion of peace for the welfare of all mankind. That acts of violence are forbidden by Allah and His holy word, and that those who perpetrate such acts are sinners in the eyes of God and totally unfit to be described as Muslims. I make this pledge without evasion equivocation or mental reservation of any kind. May Allah keep me faithful to it".

I would hope that all true Muslims would welcome the opportunity of making such a pledge.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 05:24 pm
It's a happy thought, Steve. Each mosque and mullah seem to be separate entities, and governed by their own, self-made laws, or such is my impression. In other words, I won't hold my breath.
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 05:34 pm
Now if only we could get Christians to make the same pledge:

"I............before God and by help of Jesus Christ, of my own free will, do solemnly swear to uphold Christianity as a religion of peace for the welfare of all mankind. That acts of violence are forbidden by God and His holy word, and that those who perpetrate such acts are sinners in the eyes of God and totally unfit to be described as Christians. I make this pledge without evasion equivocation or mental reservation of any kind. May God keep me faithful to it".
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 05:42 pm
That's cool, looks like some pain staking writing.You should show more people
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 05:44 pm
Terry wrote:
Now if only we could get Christians to make the same pledge:

"I............before God and by help of Jesus Christ, of my own free will, do solemnly swear to uphold Christianity as a religion of peace for the welfare of all mankind. That acts of violence are forbidden by God and His holy word, and that those who perpetrate such acts are sinners in the eyes of God and totally unfit to be described as Christians. I make this pledge without evasion equivocation or mental reservation of any kind. May God keep me faithful to it".


Cheeky sod! :wink:
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 06:00 pm
We're already full of tenets and charges against violence.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 06:08 pm
I believe this idea is worth exploring outside this forum.
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 06:18 pm
That seemst to be eminently sensible and it shouldn't be limited to Islam as has been pointed out. In another forum that has nothing to do with politics/religion but somehow manages the odd crossover I found myself in quite a spirited discussion with a poster who had converted to Roman Catholicism as an adult. Now me meself, being half Irish, was baptised Roman Catholic and pronounced myself "lapsed" (do they still use that term?) when I was about 12 (this was after being deeply steeped in the Church).

I had a very interesting discussion with the aforesaid convert. He called me a "cradle Catholic"and then began to assume all sorts of moral superiority over me (not that I cared) because I had no choice in my baptism and in effect had my religion foisted on me by at least one parent (father was very secular) whereas he chose to convert to Catholicism and therefore was more of a Catholic, etc etc, blah blah.

I thought it was quite revealing. Reminded me a bit of St Augustine who was apparently a bit of a lad before converting in his old age and then really ripping out some serious (and interesting) theology. So I wonder if there is a personality type that is attracted to religion (pick a religion, any religion) and then really goes for broke with that religion and becomes almost obsessed.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 06:30 pm
Thats why it would never fly.If one group signs we all gotta sign.Who signs first??????
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 06:41 pm
Could I sign them both?
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 07:17 pm
Re: Will the followers of Islam do this?
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
It seems the type of Islamist most likely to commit a terrorist outrage are young male converts to Islam, or "ordinary" Muslims who suddenly become very religious in their teenage years.

Therefore what I propose is to reqire by law the following affirmation on becoming a Muslim

Holding a Koran in the Mosque with the Iman and congregation assembled:

"I............before Allah and by help of the Prophet (pbuh etc), of my own free will, do solemnly swear to uphold Islam as a religion of peace for the welfare of all mankind. That acts of violence are forbidden by Allah and His holy word, and that those who perpetrate such acts are sinners in the eyes of God and totally unfit to be described as Muslims. I make this pledge without evasion equivocation or mental reservation of any kind. May Allah keep me faithful to it".

I would hope that all true Muslims would welcome the opportunity of making such a pledge.


So which "acts of violence" are you asking them to claim that their religion forbids?

Self defense? I am not sure that Islam forbids this.

Serving in the armed forces of their country? I am not sure that Islam forbids this.

Serving as a peace officer ( FBI, poice, etc) ? I am not sure that Islam forbids this.

Your pledge is probably far too vague and ambiguous to be accepted by very many Muslims.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2005 11:19 pm
real life had to go and ruin with all that real talk.This will have be revised 10000 times and then we still wont be able to get anybody to sign it.
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Maximos1984
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 03:27 am
*.*
Steve i'm muslim .. and muslims are not terrorists .. or at least not the most .. and about the violence and the terrorism we don't have to make a pledge in the mosque .. cos since the day we were born .. allah "GOD" stated in his holly book Quraan that Islam is the religion of peace ! and we should not even fight except in the case of selfdefence .. no aggressive acts!
so what i call those terroists .. I CALL THEM TERRORISTS the same as any other christian or jewish or any other terrorists! and they're all out of their religion .. but makes our reputation bad .. it's the media !
don't u see any american movies the government is alwyas trying to blame someone .. and that's the truth wheather that in USA or here in Iraq!
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:19 am
well i'm glad to see my idea has provoked a few responses

I did think such a pledge could be adapted to cover other religions, but as it seems to be Muslims who are the problem at the moment, I thought it best to start there.

And I'm sorry if I've had to describe Muslims as "the problem" but it happens to be true. We are not faced with Hindu or Christian suicide bombers on the Tube. To deny there is a violent nihilistic thread within Islam is to ignore reality. It can be traced back to the Kharjites, the Wahhabists, al Qutb, Moslem Brotherhood, jihadists in Afghanistan the GIA in Algeria and bin Laden.

I take the point about muslim members of the military, police etc. There would have to be some clause in the pledge acknowledging force in the name of lawful authority (i.e. acting in the name of the civil power]. This would be a good thing itself as it would stress the separation of church or mosque and state.

Regarding violence authorised by Islam in self defense etc, the civil law already allows for this (within reason), for example if you catch an intruder in your home.

I cant think of any reason why a pledge to renounce violence in the name of Islam could not be adopted voluntarily by mosques and their congregations encouraged to make it.

There could then be no doubt that violence as we saw in london on 7/7 is UTTERLY CONDEMNED BY ISLAM ITSELF and consequently gullible young men who hope to exchange their dreary lives on earth for constant entertainment by virgins in paradise might have some cause to doubt their ultimate destination.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:26 am
I hate to agree with you steve.But to save face the cathlic and christian death toll is pretty high. But thats not your point
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Maximos1984
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 05:24 am
as i said
Steve .. As i said .. any muslim who hurt a hair of an innocent life .. he's out of the religon and everyone knows that's he's not muslim he's just claiming to be muslim and some how he's trying to give us a bad reputation for some political reasons!
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 12:01 pm
I feel genuinely sorry for decent muslims who find their religion besmirched by the actions of a few.

My initial point, and I think it still stands, is that potential bombers at least in the UK appear to be young men who have recently become very religious.

If the religion can reinforce the idea that they are destined for hell not paradise if they kill innocents it might just deter them.

Its quite understandable to be outraged about British and American foreign policy. But there is a mechanism in this country for expressing grievances through the democratic process.

What tips the balance of a frustrated young man into violent action is the promise by islamists of paradise to come. This must be stopped.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 12:18 pm
Steve,

This happens in any religion where extremists get pushed over the edge by the promise of paradise to come.

The KKK is a Christian group.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 12:25 pm
Re: as i said
Maximos1984 wrote:
Steve .. As i said .. any muslim who hurt a hair of an innocent life .. he's out of the religon and everyone knows that's he's not muslim he's just claiming to be muslim and some how he's trying to give us a bad reputation for some political reasons!


Now, I know Muslims and I have Muslim friends, but you cannot say that a person who thinks he is Muslim, but commits atrocious acts of violence is out of the religion and does not count as one of you.

This is the technique supporters of Abstinence use. Abstinence has a 100% success rate, they say, because they don't count those who break their vow of abstinence. They claim that they aren't failures, they're people who aren't practising abstinence.

The problem is that these people are in your religion and are claiming to be a part of your religion.

They are coming from your religion. They are youths, being perverted by homocidal maniacs that have been over-saturated with ridiculous religious ideals (and by that, I mean so-called religious ideals that are ridiculously extremist and absolutely stupid, and not a part of mainstream religion).

You can't distance yourself from them. Distancing yourself from them, won't do the trick, because there are equally stupid bigots outside of your religion who will still see these extremists as an excuse to remain bigoted about you.

Both you and I have to work out how they are straying away from mainstream Islam and put a stop to it.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 02:01 pm
but my point is wolf that good muslims would want to take the oath i suggest to distance themselves from THEM
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