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Number - the brutal facts

 
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 05:01 am
Thalion wrote:
Of course math tells us new things about our world. The first example that comes to mind are how the Maxwell equations proved that light moves at a constant speed, which was a completely revolutionary concept that completely contradicted physics up until that point. The same thing occured with the Uncertainty Principle.


What can I say, but no, maths can't show that light travels at a constant speed.
And the uncertainty principle is a different case. Here, we map a confused concept, rather than one that makes sense, onto mathematics.
0 Replies
 
val
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 05:17 am
Thalion


Quote:
As Immanuel Kant believed, the universe is logical because it has to be.


Yes. It has to be logical, because we created the concept of universe and we are logical beings. Don't forget that Kant also said: it is us who give the laws to the nature.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 06:13 am
John Jones wrote:
To say that there are new theorems in mathematics is like saying that because you have a pile of bricks, you have a house.

No, I do not mean like that.
There are hidden theorems yet to be found by humans in the whole system of mathematics. Whether a theorem can be found (formulated and proved) or not depends on the probability distribution (according to quantum mechanics), but the theorem already exists irrespective of the human way of finding theorems. And the existence of the theorem might be said to be non-stochastic (i.e., not probabilistic).
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 10:33 am
satt_fs wrote:
John Jones wrote:
To say that there are new theorems in mathematics is like saying that because you have a pile of bricks, you have a house.

No, I do not mean like that.
There are hidden theorems yet to be found by humans in the whole system of mathematics. Whether a theorem can be found (formulated and proved) or not depends on the probability distribution (according to quantum mechanics), but the theorem already exists irrespective of the human way of finding theorems. And the existence of the theorem might be said to be non-stochastic (i.e., not probabilistic).


That's like saying that because your house, which you built yourself, is made of bricks, and because there are plenty of other bricks, then there must be other houses.
0 Replies
 
Thalion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 10:57 am
Hegel completed what Kant said: what is rational is real, and what is real is rational. We give laws to nature but we are also at the same time subject to those laws; they are in fact variations of the same thing.

I really don't know what else I can say about the physics. Do you actually know the history/theory behind what we're talking about? Maxwell proved that light travels at a constant speed in his laws of electromagnetism. The concept that certain things could not be known did not exist before the Uncertainty Principle and so there is no way it could have been created around something empirically observed. (going back to my first point: many of Kant's beliefs were reflected in the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics) I have no idea how you could argue against that. How could you possibly express things in more than 4 dimensions if math is based on observations? (it can be done)

Your views seem to be something like stoicism or skepticism: all that exists is thought or all that exists is what we observe, which is not true. Idealism has been illustrated to be correct.
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 03:13 pm
Thalion wrote:
Hegel completed what Kant said: what is rational is real, and what is real is rational. We give laws to nature but we are also at the same time subject to those laws; they are in fact variations of the same thing.

I really don't know what else I can say about the physics. Do you actually know the history/theory behind what we're talking about? Maxwell proved that light travels at a constant speed in his laws of electromagnetism. The concept that certain things could not be known did not exist before the Uncertainty Principle and so there is no way it could have been created around something empirically observed. (going back to my first point: many of Kant's beliefs were reflected in the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics) I have no idea how you could argue against that. How could you possibly express things in more than 4 dimensions if math is based on observations? (it can be done)

Your views seem to be something like stoicism or skepticism: all that exists is thought or all that exists is what we observe, which is not true. Idealism has been illustrated to be correct.


On one point: the uncertainty principle, with or without its mathematics does not tell us how things can be known. We are left with the maths but sense is left behind. For those who insist on claiming that mathematics can provide us with a picture of the world, we need only examine the absurd metaphysics that arises from unbridled imagination playing upon the simple signs of mathematics in probability theory to show that mathematics cannot provide us with such a picture.

Before we talk of a fourth dimension we better say what we mean by it. We can say that the fourth dimension is another spatial extension, but as we have no perception of that, it is an empty model. And it is not enough for a perceptually empty model to be regarded as a potentially viable one by a mathmatics, for mathmatics is a tool used in the service of our perception.
0 Replies
 
satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:10 pm
John Jones wrote:
satt_fs wrote:
John Jones wrote:
To say that there are new theorems in mathematics is like saying that because you have a pile of bricks, you have a house.

No, I do not mean like that.
There are hidden theorems yet to be found by humans in the whole system of mathematics. Whether a theorem can be found (formulated and proved) or not depends on the probability distribution (according to quantum mechanics), but the theorem already exists irrespective of the human way of finding theorems. And the existence of the theorem might be said to be non-stochastic (i.e., not probabilistic).


That's like saying that because your house, which you built yourself, is made of bricks, and because there are plenty of other bricks, then there must be other houses.

Houses are already built, but yet to be found by humans.
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jul, 2005 02:26 am
satt_fs wrote:
John Jones wrote:
satt_fs wrote:
John Jones wrote:
To say that there are new theorems in mathematics is like saying that because you have a pile of bricks, you have a house.

No, I do not mean like that.
There are hidden theorems yet to be found by humans in the whole system of mathematics. Whether a theorem can be found (formulated and proved) or not depends on the probability distribution (according to quantum mechanics), but the theorem already exists irrespective of the human way of finding theorems. And the existence of the theorem might be said to be non-stochastic (i.e., not probabilistic).


That's like saying that because your house, which you built yourself, is made of bricks, and because there are plenty of other bricks, then there must be other houses.

Houses are already built, but yet to be found by humans.


We built them ourselves, and what we built we already know about.
0 Replies
 
satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jul, 2005 03:49 am
No.. Houses exist, some of which are unknown to humans.
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jul, 2005 06:51 am
satt_fs wrote:
No.. Houses exist, some of which are unknown to humans.


There are no numbers until we start counting. Where there is no starting to count there are no numbers.
0 Replies
 
satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jul, 2005 06:54 am
John Jones wrote:
There are no numbers until we start counting. Where there is no starting to count there are no numbers.

There are no numbers "found" until we start counting. If we did not start counting we could not "find" numbers.
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jul, 2005 07:12 am
satt_fs wrote:
John Jones wrote:
There are no numbers until we start counting. Where there is no starting to count there are no numbers.

There are no numbers "found" until we start counting. If we did not start counting we could not "find" numbers.


I don't find a number, I count it. If I find a number I could start counting my head as sixteen.
0 Replies
 
satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jul, 2005 07:26 am
The ideal (or approximated) orbit of the moon is found, not simply calculated.
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John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jul, 2005 12:14 pm
satt_fs wrote:
The ideal (or approximated) orbit of the moon is found, not simply calculated.


It would be odd if we found the numerical distance of the orbit of the moon before finding that it had an orbit. Now please go and answer my thread 'pi', below this one.
0 Replies
 
 

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