11
   

The Derek Chauvin Trial

 
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 14 Aug, 2021 02:15 pm
@Mame,
Mame wrote:
If all that is the case, why are you still here? Dealing with low-IQers and such.

As long as I am here, I prevent progressive lies from going unchallenged.

Many of the intelligent people did in fact leave the site once it got infested with "low-IQers and such".

Perhaps I am a bit more stubborn than the people who left.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2021 08:43 pm
@oralloy,
vikorr wrote:
and use hyperbole / demonisation
oralloy wrote:
That's another lie. Everything I've said is entirely factual. That's why you have to lie about me instead of addressing the subject of the thread.

Fact: Christian Cooper said something like 'you won't like the outcome Fact Christian Cooper offered Amy Cooper's dog a dog treat. Fact: Christian Cooper engaged in no physical act of violence, remained calm of voice and body, and asked her not to approach him him multiple times....but you ignored these facts, to use hyperbole / demonise him:

They do have the right to kill people who try to murder their pets. (Cooper in fact did not try to murder her pet - so hyperbole / demonisation). White people have every right to protect themselves when black people try to murder them (Cooper in fact did not try to murder her - so hyperbole / demonisation). That thug attacked her pet and she should have shot him in self defense and then walked away (Cooper in fact did not attack her pet. So hyperbole / demonisation) White people have the right to protect themselves when black people try to rape or murder them. (Cooper in fact did not try to rape or murder her - so hyperbole / demonisation)


There were also multiple instances of you calling him an Axe Murderer, violent, etc. (Cooper in fact, engaged in no act of violence, could never reasonably be argued to have tried to murder her, and had no axe, so hyperbole/demonisation)

30 odd links to oralloy quotes from Arbery/McMichaels case - where he constantly used subjective words that both attacked the dead victim Martin and defended the killer McMichaels.

vikorr wrote:
- focus on race
oralloy wrote:
That's a lie. I only focus on race when race is already the subject of discussion.
Which says you focused on race. Certainly no-one else could make your fingers type 'black vs white' / 'white vs minority' sentences. It's very possible to not be racist by saying 'anyone has the right to self defense'. No race required. No need to phrase it as 'Us vs Them'.

You do the same implicitly when you keep defending only white people who are in conflict with black people / using subjective words only in favour of the white people and always against the black people. McMichaelse & Arbery, the start of the Floyd Matter, Zimmerman/Martin etc, the lad recently shot dead in his on home by an off duty officer.... In contrast, there isn't a thread with you empathising with the perspective of anyone else bar white people (where there's conflict between races)...and because of this, any concession you make to charges comes across as very grudging at best.

Same goes for the rest of the allegations I made - but there are around 30 links in the McMichaels incident (single link will take you to a multilink page), and multiple ones from the Cooper...that's more than enough effort considering you never return the same favour or linking such evidence.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2021 03:36 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Fact: Christian Cooper said something like 'you won't like the outcome Fact Christian Cooper offered Amy Cooper's dog a dog treat. Fact: Christian Cooper engaged in no physical act of violence, remained calm of voice and body, and asked her not to approach him him multiple times....but you ignored these facts, to use hyperbole / demonise him:

Wrong. Facts and reality are not hyperbole.


vikorr wrote:
They do have the right to kill people who try to murder their pets. (Cooper in fact did not try to murder her pet - so hyperbole / demonisation).

He made a threat against her pet and then tried to act on it. It was perfectly reasonable for her to assume that her pet was under attack.

So you are lying again. There was no hyperbole and no demonization.


vikorr wrote:
White people have every right to protect themselves when black people try to murder them (Cooper in fact did not try to murder her - so hyperbole / demonisation).

Given your history of lying about what I say, I'm going to assume that you are lying about me saying this in context of the birdwatcher thug.

I'll be happy to address it further if you actually establish that I did say it in the context of the birdwatcher thug.


vikorr wrote:
That thug attacked her pet and she should have shot him in self defense and then walked away (Cooper in fact did not attack her pet. So hyperbole / demonisation)

Trying to lure someone's pet away from them in a hostile context is an attack.

So you are lying again. There was no hyperbole and no demonization.


vikorr wrote:
White people have the right to protect themselves when black people try to rape or murder them. (Cooper in fact did not try to rape or murder her - so hyperbole / demonisation)

Given your history of lying about what I say, I'm going to assume that you are lying about me saying this in context of the birdwatcher thug.

I'll be happy to address it further if you actually establish that I did say it in the context of the birdwatcher thug.


vikorr wrote:
There were also multiple instances of you calling him an Axe Murderer, violent, etc.

Surprise surprise. You are lying again. I never called him an axe murderer.

What I said was that after you have menaced a woman (who doesn't know you) to the extent that she identifies you as a probable axe murderer, there is no way to have her sit down with you so you can explain to her that you mean no harm. Your only option is to withdraw completely.

I was responding to your bizarre and delusional suggestion that Amy Cooper might have considered sitting down and having a pleasant conversation with the thug who was actively menacing her.


vikorr wrote:
(Cooper in fact, engaged in no act of violence, could never reasonably be argued to have tried to murder her, and had no axe, so hyperbole/demonisation)

No. When you lie about what I say, that is neither hyperbole nor demonization (at least, not on my part).


vikorr wrote:
30 odd links to oralloy quotes from Arbery/McMichaels case - where he constantly used subjective words that both attacked the dead victim Martin and defended the killer McMichaels.

You are lying. I never attacked the dead jogger guy.

Of course I defend the McMichaels. They have every right to be safe from from dangerous threats.


vikorr wrote:
Which says you focused on race.

Only when race is the topic of discussion (such as when I am condemning your racism).


vikorr wrote:
It's very possible to not be racist by saying 'anyone has the right to self defense'.

Condemning your racism is not racist.

You are a racist for thinking that it even could be.


vikorr wrote:
You do the same implicitly when you keep defending only white people who are in conflict with black people / using subjective words only in favour of the white people and always against the black people.

When you racists attack white people, white people will be the ones who are defended.


vikorr wrote:
you never return the same favour or linking such evidence.

You are lying again. I am always happy to provide links to support my arguments.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2021 05:49 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Given your history of lying about what I say, I'm going to assume that you are lying about me saying this in context of the birdwatcher thug.
I see I provided an incorrect link the previous post. This is the correct link to a multilink post that then links directly to your statements.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2021 06:15 pm
@vikorr,
Very well.

I've lost enough long messages to browser crashes that I have a browser addon that records everything that I type into messageboard forms, and keeps it for 24 hours.

Here was my original response to those two points before I decided to change it:

vikorr wrote:
White people have every right to protect themselves when black people try to murder them (Cooper in fact did not try to murder her - so hyperbole / demonisation).

The way he was menacing her, it was perfectly reasonable for her to assume that he was going to try to murder her.

So, no hyperbole and no demonization.


vikorr wrote:
White people have the right to protect themselves when black people try to rape or murder them. (Cooper in fact did not try to rape or murder her - so hyperbole / demonisation)

The way he was menacing her, it was perfectly reasonable for her to assume that he was going to try to rape and/or murder her.

So, no hyperbole and no demonization.


To add a bit more to the above points, look at the case of the jogger guy in Georgia. The jogger guy is the very definition of completely innocent. Yet those other guys (I forget their names) assumed that he was a dangerous burglar.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2021 08:08 pm
@oralloy,
The quotes I took issue with were you stating 'facts' that were not facts, being either extreme exagerations (ie hyperbole & demonisation), or outright faleshoods (lies & demonisation).

A persons perception is a different thing. They can perceive whatever they like - doesn't make their perception fact (other than 'it is a fact that I perceive it to be X). I can perceive a rock to be a feather, and that is the fact of my perception - it doesn't make my perception fact - as the rock is a rock, not a feather.

Cooper did not in fact:
- behave violently (he was very calm, and never touched her or her dog)
- attack her dog (he offered it a treat)
- attempt to murder her
- attempt to rape her etc

If you qualified it with 'she have may perceived X' then you would be stating possibilities (which last two I would still think ludicrous). But you saying he attacked her, attempted to rape/murder her etc are plain falsehoods.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2021 11:02 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Cooper did not in fact:
- behave violently (he was very calm, and never touched her or her dog)

That's a gray area, IMO. The attack on her dog was not very nice.


vikorr wrote:
- attack her dog (he offered it a treat)

He used the treat to try to lure it away from her in a hostile context. That is an attack.


vikorr wrote:
- attempt to murder her
- attempt to rape her etc

He was menacing her. It would be perfectly reasonable for her to fear that outcome.


vikorr wrote:
If you qualified it with 'she have may perceived X' then you would be stating possibilities (which last two I would still think ludicrous).

No if. That is exactly what I did do.

https://able2know.org/topic/131081-469#post-7017725


vikorr wrote:
But you saying he attacked her, attempted to rape/murder her etc are plain falsehoods.

That he attacked is not a falsehood. He tried to lure her pet away from her under threatening circumstances. That's an attack.

I never said that he tried to rape or murder her. I only said that it was a reasonable suspicion that he would try.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 12:44 am
@oralloy,
Your repeating her perception does not change the actual facts - Cooper engaged in no attack on her dog.

You can perceive a frog to be a human prince. Doesn't make the frog factually a human prince.

Quote:
He used the treat to try to lure it away from her in a hostile context. That is an attack.
Wow, you actually admitting context affects the perception of threat and the level of threat? Wow...oh Wow...well lets rehash when I tried to tell you that doing so is the only accurate way to guage whether menace existed & the level of menace - what about how Cooper remained calm, didn't go near her, told her multiple times not to approach her? Wait...no need to answer....I know your answer to that - you call context that you don't like irrelevant because it doesn't favour your preferred white view of the world.

But back to the facts. Perception is not fact. No frog can be a human prince just because a person perceives the frog to be a prince. Fact: Cooper tried to give a treat to a dog. A treat is harmless. Attacks always cause harm.

You can say 'she perceived an attack' this would be accurate. To say 'he attacked her pet' is a patent falsehood.

Your follow-on arguments all have the same logical fallacy. Perception does not change fact. To say he tried to rape/murder her is patently false, and patently attempting to demonise him. Denying you said such is pointless - I quoted and linked you doing so. Would you like them again?
vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 01:10 am
@vikorr,
Same goes for your calling him violent, and a thug. He engaged in no act of violence. The best that could be said is she perceived a menace/threat. Her perception doesn't change the actual fact - that he engaged in no act of violence, remained calm, and asked her not to come near him multiple times.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 11:35 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Your repeating her perception does not change the actual facts - Cooper engaged in no attack on her dog.

Wrong. Trying to lure her pet away in a hostile context is an attack.


vikorr wrote:
what about how Cooper remained calm, didn't go near her, told her multiple times not to approach her?

None of that changes the reality of his threat and subsequent attack on her pet.


vikorr wrote:
Wait...no need to answer....I know your answer to that - you call context that you don't like irrelevant because it doesn't favour your preferred white view of the world.

I call it irrelevant because it does not change the reality of his threat and his attack on her pet.


vikorr wrote:
But back to the facts. Perception is not fact. No frog can be a human prince just because a person perceives the frog to be a prince.

One thing you keep misunderstanding is, perception is what matters here, not fact.

When the guys in Georgia killed the jogger guy, the fact was he was an innocent jogger. But their perception was that he was a dangerous criminal.


vikorr wrote:
A treat is harmless.

Not when it tries to lure someone's pet away in a hostile context.


vikorr wrote:
To say 'he attacked her pet' is a patent falsehood.

That is incorrect. He tried to lure her pet away in a hostile context.


vikorr wrote:
Your follow-on arguments all have the same logical fallacy.

No such fallacy.


vikorr wrote:
Perception does not change fact.

True. But perception is what is relevant. Note my reference to the Georgia case a few lines above.


vikorr wrote:
To say he tried to rape/murder her is patently false, and patently attempting to demonise him.

That's OK. I don't say anything even remotely like that.


vikorr wrote:
Denying you said such is pointless

I disagree. When people see me denying your lies, they understand that you are lying about me.


vikorr wrote:
I quoted and linked you doing so.

No you didn't.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 11:36 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Same goes for your calling him violent, and a thug. He engaged in no act of violence.

He clearly is a thug in every sense of the word. He takes it upon himself to enforce the law on his own, and he actively menaces people that he believes are not following the law.

Whether he is "violent" is a gray area. His attack on her pet certainly wasn't very nice.


vikorr wrote:
The best that could be said is she perceived a menace/threat.

No. He made an actual threat. And then he made an attempt to carry out his threat.


vikorr wrote:
Her perception doesn't change the actual fact - that he engaged in no act of violence, remained calm, and asked her not to come near him multiple times.

Her perception does not need to change any facts.

If she reasonably perceived that he was about to rape and murder her, that is all the justification that is required in order for her to open fire in self defense.

If he in fact was not about to do any such thing, that fact is not relevant.
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 01:45 pm
@vikorr,
Thank God for cameras on phones!
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 01:53 pm
@Mame,
Ain't that the truth.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 02:51 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Wrong. Trying to lure her pet away in a hostile context is an attack.
You don't even comprehend what you are saying do you?

- Christian Cooper obviously meant nothing hostile to her dog (giving a dog a treat is not hostile towards the dog). Likely Interpretation of 'you won't like the outcome' (ie. perception) - in line with the lack of hostile intent towards her dog: Showing a person that a dog off leash will go for treats (or birds) is also not hostile. It showing a person the consequences of a dog being off leash. Some people don't like being shown how poor/wrong their decisions are. I would imagine the % of people who don't like such displays are those arrogant enough to have been asked to put a lead on their dog and telling the other person they won't.[/i]

- Christian Cooper said some words that Amy Cooper had to perceive, in order to 'understand' them (ie. form a perception of what they meant).
- The hostile context you talk about only could be a perceived context on on the part of Amy Cooper. Her perception is not fact.

- Christian Cooper engaged in no violence, remained calm, and asked her multiple times not to come near him. This is fact.

Quote:
One thing you keep misunderstanding is, perception is what matters here, not fact.
Sorry, but it is you who said everything you said is factual. When you say that - then whether or not what you say is factual is all that matters.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 03:09 pm
@vikorr,
Keep going, vikorr!
I’m certain that, in a mere matter of another decade or so, you will persuade him!
Cheers!
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 03:17 pm
@oralloy,
Also:
- when a person makes a perfect statement, they are talking about facts.
- when a person qualifies their statements, they are talking possibilities/perceptions/opinions etc

Persons using perfect statements in place of qualified statements is a tactic used by those want to more strongly associate a 'quality' with a person. This can be in both the good, and bad directions. You making perfect statements of him being a rapist/murderer is you trying to associate him more strongly with a rapist/murderer (ie. demonise him)

Really though, this obviously doesn't need explaining to you at your IQ of 170, so why do you make out like you don't understand it?.


Note on the above: Perfect is used in the meaning of perfect/imperfect as relates to language
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 03:18 pm
@Mame,
Yup. Otherwise people could make up any excuse they like, and (according to you-know-who) shoot, shovel and shut up.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 03:20 pm
@snood,
Not really. I don't hold out much hope of that. I just wonder if double standards should go unchallenged. Likely it just clogs up the forum.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 03:36 pm
@vikorr,
Note that it's the progressives who push double standards, and it's me who challenges the double standards.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2021 03:39 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Not really. I don't hold out much hope of that. I just wonder if double standards should go unchallenged. Likely it just clogs up the forum.


Doesn’t bother me that much. I don’t read most of it.

Whatever turns your crank, I guess.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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