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Does God Meddle in the Affairs of Man?

 
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 08:11 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
neologist wrote:
For centuries the religious elite have manipulated the scriptures to maintain control over the masses. The bible, however, is straightforward if you are willing to expend some effort in learning it.


I agree with you on this post, but it can be argued that the manipulation started with Constantinople and the very construction of the Christian Bible.


The New Testament writings, from their very inception, were copied and recopied by MANY different scribes and shared all over the ancient world.

They were translated into many different languages and disseminated widely in many different countries.

They were also quoted voluminously in the writings of the early Church Fathers.

These factors, among others, meant that the scriptures were NEVER under the control of a small group who could manipulate and change them. The multitude of copies, ( produced not by a central publishing house of one sect, by in widely divergent geographical locations in a time when travel and communication were long and difficult propositions ) functioned as checks and balances upon each other.

Most scribes were careful and did their work in reverence. A few did not and produced erroneous copies based on their bias. It is easy to discern the few flawed manuscripts when the majority hold to their testimony in unanimity.

The constant recurring conspiracy theories regarding the various church councils, Constantine or other prominent individuals are fighting the current of testimony from thousands of manuscript copies, ancient translations and early citations by the Fathers of these ancient texts.

The same can be said of the few errant translations that are produced today with the "authority" of just a handful of manuscripts continually cited as their excuse for changing the text or the meaning of the scripture.
0 Replies
 
Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 05:57 am
Back to the original question. I believe that God's divine providence controls every breath we make and every step we take. Without Him, no one could even think a thought. I believe that ultimately our free will is limited to choosing between good and evil. Anything else could probably be likened to a person floating along with the currents of a river.

As for a fatal car crash, it's not necessarily a negative thing in the grand schemes of God. A such crash in itself is neither evil, nor good, it's simply a transition from one life to another. Ultimately, it's the choices that we make between good and evil prior to our death that counts. A person who has committed very few sins could die very young, and a notorious sinner could live for a hundred years.

neologist wrote:
There is no such thing a roasting toasting baking broiling hell. The bible does not support the idea. So you are safe. Do you really believe the concept of eternal punishment in hell fits in with the definition of God as 'love'?


There are many references to hell in the Bible. Even if you look at the "fire and brimstone" part as metaphorical, there can be no doubt that the state described is one of immense torment. If a person refuses to accept God's divine mercy, and chooses rather an iniquitous way of living, then he will become his own tormentor, because attached to every evil there is a price of suffering. A such person will simply reap the fruits of what he has sown. It is true that God is love, but God is also a respecter of free will. A person who leads an iniquitious life and refuses God's mercy creates his own hell.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 02:38 pm
Derevon wrote:
Back to the original question. I believe that God's divine providence controls every breath we make and every step we take. Without Him, no one could even think a thought. I believe that ultimately our free will is limited to choosing between good and evil. Anything else could probably be likened to a person floating along with the currents of a river.

As for a fatal car crash, it's not necessarily a negative thing in the grand schemes of God. A such crash in itself is neither evil, nor good, it's simply a transition from one life to another. .......


I have to pull the plug on that thought.

In the Bible, Death is called the last enemy.

Death is in the world as a result on man's sin. It is not a good thing ever. It is an evil.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 03:05 pm
real life wrote:
Derevon wrote:
Back to the original question. I believe that God's divine providence controls every breath we make and every step we take. Without Him, no one could even think a thought. I believe that ultimately our free will is limited to choosing between good and evil. Anything else could probably be likened to a person floating along with the currents of a river.

As for a fatal car crash, it's not necessarily a negative thing in the grand schemes of God. A such crash in itself is neither evil, nor good, it's simply a transition from one life to another. .......


I have to pull the plug on that thought.

In the Bible, Death is called the last enemy.

Death is in the world as a result on man's sin. It is not a good thing ever. It is an evil.
Yeah, what you said
0 Replies
 
Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 07:41 pm
real life wrote:
Derevon wrote:
Back to the original question. I believe that God's divine providence controls every breath we make and every step we take. Without Him, no one could even think a thought. I believe that ultimately our free will is limited to choosing between good and evil. Anything else could probably be likened to a person floating along with the currents of a river.

As for a fatal car crash, it's not necessarily a negative thing in the grand schemes of God. A such crash in itself is neither evil, nor good, it's simply a transition from one life to another. .......


I have to pull the plug on that thought.

In the Bible, Death is called the last enemy.

Death is in the world as a result on man's sin. It is not a good thing ever. It is an evil.


I have to disagree. Every corporeal being eventually dies, even animals who have no free will, and therefore cannot possibly sin. I believe that the death that is referred to as an enemy is rather the state of spiritual death.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 07:58 pm
Derevon wrote:
real life wrote:
Derevon wrote:
Back to the original question. I believe that God's divine providence controls every breath we make and every step we take. Without Him, no one could even think a thought. I believe that ultimately our free will is limited to choosing between good and evil. Anything else could probably be likened to a person floating along with the currents of a river.

As for a fatal car crash, it's not necessarily a negative thing in the grand schemes of God. A such crash in itself is neither evil, nor good, it's simply a transition from one life to another. .......


I have to pull the plug on that thought.

In the Bible, Death is called the last enemy.

Death is in the world as a result on man's sin. It is not a good thing ever. It is an evil.


I have to disagree. Every corporeal being eventually dies, even animals who have no free will, and therefore cannot possibly sin. I believe that the death that is referred to as an enemy is rather the state of spiritual death.


The quote is made in the context of the teaching about the resurrection of the body.

The Bible makes it clear that all of creation, not just mankind, was affected by man's decision to sin.

Physical death was not in the world prior to sin. Can you show otherwise from the scripture?
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 09:12 pm
Now I understand how you're thinking. I wasn't really thinking along those lines. This topic was after all not about the origin of sin and mortality, but rather about whether or not an individual's death in a car crash could be considered a punishment from God for offences committed, which I was arguing against. You may of course very well be right in what you say, and I believe you are, but then the death would still only be connected to the sinful nature of man, and not to any particular sins for which one is punished. When I think about evil I usually think of it as "using one's free will to act contrary to God's will", and if one thinks along those lines, the crash itself isn't evil, unless it's voluntary. It's simply an effect.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 09:22 pm
Derevon wrote:
Now I understand how you're thinking. I wasn't really thinking along those lines. This topic was after all not about the origin of sin and mortality, but rather about whether or not an individual's death in a car crash could be considered a punishment from God for offences committed, which I was arguing against. You may of course very well be right in what you say, and I believe you are, but then the death would still only be connected to the sinful nature of man, and not to any particular sins for which one is punished. When I think about evil I usually think of it as "using one's free will to act contrary to God's will", and if one thinks along those lines, the crash itself isn't evil, unless it's voluntary. It's simply an effect.


A car crash could very well be connected to the driver's sins. The driver does not have to voluntarily crash for it to be causally linked to his sins.

But whether it is or is not caused directly or indirectly by someone's sin, the crash is not good. It is evil.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 09:36 pm
"The wage sin pays is death", right?
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krakrMann
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 04:03 am
In recent experience, God does involve himself in our lives. I can testify that He does offer Divine Intervention, through prayer.

I know its a really simple and "no duh" type statement to make. Buts its incredible when it happens.
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