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Rove was the source of the Plame leak... so it appears

 
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 03:23 am
Aronoff said:

Quote:
But the public evidence against Rove at this point is mighty thin and the case seems minor compared to the incidents cited above. We can only conclude that the media frenzy is disproportion


I beg your pardon.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 05:35 am
Quote:
What Now, Karl?
Rove and Ashcroft face new allegations in the Valerie Plame affair

by Murray Waas
August 13th, 2005 2:39 PM

Murray Waas will be writing more about the latest in the Plame affair at www.whateveralready.blogspot.com.

Justice Department officials made the crucial decision in late 2003 to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the leak of the identity of undercover CIA officer Valerie Plame in large part because investigators had begun to specifically question the veracity of accounts provided to them by White House deputy chief of staff Karl Rove, according to senior law enforcement officials.
Several of the federal investigators were also deeply concerned that then attorney general John Ashcroft was personally briefed regarding the details of at least one FBI interview with Rove, despite Ashcroft's own longstanding personal and political ties to Rove, the Voice has also learned. The same sources said Ashcroft was also told that investigators firmly believed that Rove had withheld important information from them during that FBI interview.

Those concerns by senior career law enforcement officials regarding the propriety of such briefings continuing, as Rove became more central to the investigation, also was instrumental in the naming of special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald.

Up until that point, the investigation had been conducted by a team of career prosecutors and FBI agents, some of whom believed Ashcroft should recuse himself. Democrats on Capitol Hill were calling for him to step down, but he did not. Then on December 30, 2003, Ashcroft unexpectedly recused himself from further overseeing the matter, and James B. Comey, then deputy attorney general, named Patrick J. Fitzgerald as the special prosecutor who would take over the case.

The Justice Department declined to publicly offer any explanation at the time for either the recusal or the naming of a special prosecutor?-an appointment that would ultimately place in potential legal jeopardy senior advisers to the president of the United States, and lead to the jailing of a New York Times reporter.

During his initial interview with the FBI, in the fall of 2003, Rove did not disclose that he had ever discussed Plame with Time magazine correspondent Matthew Cooper, according to two legal sources with firsthand knowledge of the matter. Federal investigators were also skeptical of claims by Rove that he had only first learned of Plame's employment with the CIA from a journalist, even though he also claimed he could not specifically recall the name of the journalist.

As the truthfulness of Rove's accounts became more of a focus of investigators, career Justice Department employees and senior FBI officials became even more concerned about the continuing role in the investigation of Ashcroft, because of his close relationship with Rove. Rove had earlier served as an adviser to Ashcroft during the course of three political campaigns. And Rove's onetime political consulting firm had been paid more than $746,000 for those services.

In response to these new allegations, Representative John Conyers of Michigan, the current ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, and former chairman of the committee as well, said in a statement: "There has long been the appearance of impropriety in Ashcroft's handling of this investigation. The former attorney general had well documented conflicts of interest in this matter, particularly with regard to his personal relationship with Karl Rove. Among other things, Rove was employed by Ashcroft throughout his political career, and Rove reportedly had fiercely advocated for Ashcroft's appointment as attorney general. Pursuant to standard rules of legal ethics, and explicit rules on conflict of interest, those facts alone should have dictated his immediate recusal.

"The new information, that Ashcroft had not only refused to recuse himself over a period of months, but also was insisting on being personally briefed about a matter implicating his friend, Karl Rove, represents a stunning ethical breach that cries out for an immediate investigation by the Department's Office of Professional Responsibility and Inspector General."

A Justice Department spokesman declined on Friday to say what action, if any, might be taken in response to Conyers' request.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Also of concern to investigators when they sought Ashcroft's recusal, according to law enforcement sources, was that a number among Ashcroft's inner circle had partisan backgrounds that included working closely with Rove. Foremost among them was David Isrealite, who served as Ashcroft's deputy chief of staff. Another, Barbara Comstock, who was the Justice Department's director of public affairs during much of Ashcroft's tenure, had previously worked for the Republican National Committee, where she was in charge of the party's "opposition research" operations.

"It would have been a nightmare scenario if Ashcroft let something slip to an aide or someone else they had in common with Rove . . . and then word got back to Rove or the White House what investigators were saying about him," says a former senior Justice Department official, familiar with the matter.

Although not reported at the time, when Ashcroft recused himself from the Plame investigation, Deputy Attorney General Comey said in a statement that the A.G.'s personal staff was also being fully recused in the matter.

Indeed, the appointment of Fitzgerald as special prosecutor and the recusal of Ashcroft came just three weeks after Comey, then the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, was named to be deputy attorney general. Comey himself was no stranger to the issue?-even before he took office. During his Senate confirmation hearings, Comey had pledged that he would personally see to it that the independence and integrity of the investigation would not be compromised in any way.

At one point during those hearings, Senator Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) cited the close relationships between Ashcroft and Rove, and also between Ashcroft and others also likely to be questioned during the leak probe. Schumer asked Comey:

"How could there not be an appearance of a conflict given the close nexus of relationships?"

"I agree with you that it's an extremely important matter," Comey replied.

Within days of his taking office, several career Justice Department prosecutors took their own longstanding concerns to Comey, telling him that perhaps it would be best for Ashcroft to recuse himself, the same legal sources said. A smaller number also advocated the appointment of an outside prosecutor to take over the matter completely.

The combination of Ashcroft's close relationship with Rove, the omission of critical information from the FBI by Rove during his initial interview with agents, that Ashcroft had been briefed about that interview in particular, and the-then recent appointment of Comey, all allowed for a forceful case being made by career Justice Department employees be made that the attorney general should step aside and a special prosecutor be named.

But says one government official familiar with the process: "When Ashcroft was briefed on Rove, that ended the argument. He was going to be removed. And there was going to be a special prosecutor named."

The new disclosures as to why Ashcroft recused himself from the Plame case and why a special prosecutor was named are important for a number of reasons:

First, they show that from the very earliest days of the criminal probe, federal investigators had a strong belief and body of evidence that Rove and perhaps other officials might be misleading them.

Second, the new information underscores that career Justice Department staffers had concerns that the continued role of Ashcroft and other political aides might tarnish the investigation.

Finally, the new information once again highlights the importance of the testimony of journalists in uncovering whether anyone might have broken the law by disclosing classified information regarding Plame. That is because both Rove and I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, the chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney?-who are at the center of the Plame investigation?-have said that they did not learn of Plame's employment with the CIA from classified government information, but rather journalists; without the testimony of journalists, prosecutors have been unable to get to the bottom of the matter.




Several journalists have testified to Fitzgerald's grand jury, but New York Times correspondent Judith Miller, who has refused to identify her confidential sources, was ordered to jail by Federal District Court Judge Thomas F. Hogan on July 6, where she remains.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The initial criminal investigation began well before the case was turned over to Fitzgerald in December 2003. It started shortly after conservative columnist Robert Novak first identified Plame as an undercover CIA officer, in a July 14, 2003, column.

The column was written during a time when senior White House officials were attempting to discredit Plame's husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, who was then asserting that the Bush administration had relied on faulty intelligence to bolster its case to go to war with Iraq. Wilson had only recently led a CIA-sponsored mission to the African nation of Niger to investigate claims that Saddam Hussein was covertly attempting to buy enriched uranium from the African nation to build a nuclear weapon.

Wilson reported back to the CIA that the allegations were most likely the result of a hoax.

When Wilson sought out White House officials, believing they did not know all the facts, he was rebuffed. He then went public with his criticism of the Bush administration. It was then that senior administration officials began their campaign to discredit Wilson as a means of countering his criticisms of them.

Rove and Libby, and to a lesser extent then deputy National Security Council (NSC) adviser Stephen J. Hadley (who is currently Bush's NSC adviser), directed these efforts. Both Rove and Libby discussed with Novak, Cooper, and other journalists the fact that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, and that she was responsible for sending him to Niger, in an effort to discredit him.

The manner by which Rove and Libby learned of Plame's employment at the CIA before they shared that information with journalists is central to whether any federal criminal laws regarding classified information were violated. Rove and Libby have reportedly claimed they learned of the information from journalists. Rove in particular told FBI officials that he first learned of Plame's employment with the CIA from a journalist, but drew their suspicions when he claimed that he could not recall the journalist's name.

Plame's employment with the CIA had been detailed in a highly classified State Department memorandum?-circulated to senior Bush administration officials?-in the days jut prior to conversations between Rove and Libby and journalists regarding Plame.

Dated June 10, 2003, the memo was written for Marc Grossman, then the undersecretary of state for political affairs. It mentioned Plame, her employment with the CIA, and her possible role in recommending her husband for the Niger mission because he had previously served in the region. The mention of Plame's CIA employment was classified "Secret" and was contained in the second paragraph of the three-page classified paper.

On July 6, 2003, Wilson published his now famous New York Times op-ed and appeared on "Meet the Press." The following day, on July 7, the memo was sent to then secretary of state Colin L. Powell and other senior Bush administration officials, who were scrambling to respond to the public criticism. At the time, Powell and other senior administration officials were on their way to Africa aboard Air Force One as members of the presidential entourage for a state visit to Africa.

Rove and Libby apparently were not on that trip, according to press accounts. But a subpoena during the earliest days of the Plame investigation demanded records related to any telephone phone calls to and from Air Force One from July 7 to July 12, during Bush's African visit.

On July 8, Novak and Rove first spoke about Plame, according to numerous press accounts. That very same day, as the American Prospect recently disclosed, Libby and New York Times reporter Judith Miller also discussed Plame.

On July 9, then CIA director George Tenet ordered aides to draft a statement that the Niger information the president relied on "did not rise to the level of certainty which should be required for the presidential speeches, and the CIA should have ensured that it was removed." Rove and Libby were reportedly involved in the drafting of that statement's language.

Two days later, on July 11, Rove spoke about Plame to Time magazine's Matthew Cooper.

On the following day, July 12, an administration official?- apparently not Rove or Libby?-told Washington Post reporter Walter Pincus that Wilson was sent to Niger on the recommendation of his wife, who worked at the CIA.

Two days after that, on July 14, Novak published his column disclosing Plame's employment with the CIA, describing her as an "agency operative" and alleging that she suggested her husband for the Niger mission.

And on July 17, Time magazine posted its own story online, which said: "[S]ome government officials have noted to Time in interviews . . . that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, is a CIA official who monitors the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. These officials have suggested that she was involved in her husband's being dispatched to Niger." Facing jail time for not disclosing his source, Cooper recently relented, and disclosed that Rove was one of his sources for that information.

But it was Rove's omission during an initial interview, back in October 2003, with the FBI?-that he had ever spoken with Cooper at all?-coupled with the fact that Ashcroft was briefed about the interview, that largely precipitated the appointment of Fitzgerald as special prosecutor, according to senior law enforcement officials familiar with the matter.

Comey, then only recently named deputy attorney general, called a press conference and dramatically announced: "Effective today, the attorney general has recused himself . . . from further involvement in these matters."

He also said he was naming Patrick J. Fitzgerald, who also serves as U.S. attorney in Chicago, as special prosecutor to take over the case. To further his independence, Comey also announced that he personally would serve as "acting Attorney General for purposes of this matter."

Last week, however, Comey announced he was leaving the Justice Department to become the general counsel of the defense contractor Lockheed Martin. In his absence, Associate Attorney General Robert McCallum is the most likely choice to be named as the acting deputy attorney general, and thus the man overseeing Fitzgerald's work. But McCallum has been a close personal friend of President Bush. Justice Department officials are once more grappling as to how to best assure independence for investigators. And Democrats on Capitol Hill are unlikely not to question any role in the leak probe by McCallum.

(Alberto Gonzalez, who succeeded Ashcroft as attorney general, had also?-like Ashcroft?-recused himself from the case. Gonzalez had overseen the response of White House officials to requests from investigators working the Plame case while he was White House counsel, and has also been a witness before Fitzgerald's grand jury.)

In the meantime, Fitzgerald's investigation appears to be in its final stages.

Nineteen months ago, when Comey appointed him as special prosecutor, reporters pressed Comey during the announcement as to what was behind his dramatic action. All that he would say at the time was: "If you were to speculate in print or in the media about particular people, I think that would be unfair to them."

Then he added, almost as an afterthought: "We also don't want people that we might be interested in to know we're interested in them."


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 06:46 am
Fitgerald just quietly keeps slugging away on with or without very much media attention, doesn't he? Maybe in the buzz of other news stories a big announcement will be soon be made when Fitgerald's investigation is completed.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 06:52 am
I found this part hilarious:

Quote:
Sandy Berger, former National Security Adviser under President Clinton, pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor in federal court. Berger admitted that he intentionally took and destroyed copies of classified documents from the National Archives. He had stuffed some in his pants, cut some of them up with scissors, and lied to the investigators and the American public. He claimed he was reviewing Clinton administration documents to decide which ones to provide to the commission investigating the 9/11 attacks on Washington D.C. and New York. He said it had been "an honest mistake" and that he "deeply regrets" his actions.

LOL! He "cut some of them up with scissors" and then said it was "an honest mistake".

The devil made him do it. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Honestly, the outrage here over this non-story about Karl Rove is laughable. I predict those who have whipped themselves into a frenzy, wishing and hoping (some even praying LOL) that Rove will be implicated in this "so-called" leak are in for some major disappointment.

Major.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 07:07 am
Ticomaya wrote:
parados wrote:
Tico wrote:
Quote:
You do not have a logical mind, which I determined in our last go-round.
Determined or just "made up" to give yourself a basis for continuing to argue?

Tico, you would argue that I was assuming if I claimed 2+2 = 4.


No, I wouldn't. But you tend to claim 2 + X = 4. Laughing
and you can't show me where I have substituted x for 2.. The only thing that is funny is your attempts to claim something is completely unknown when all evidence points to it.
Quote:

parados wrote:
A conclusion is not the same thing as an assumption.
A logical conclusion is based on logic Tico. ...

Thanks for the "lesson," Einstein. I meant assumption, and that's why I typed the word "assumption."

Quote:
Facts we know.
Rove and Libby told reporters that Wilson's wife sent him to Niger
A state dept memo is the only known source of that information prior to reporters being told it. (The CIA doesn't state that his wife sent him.)
The memo was circulated amongst WH staff on Air Force 1
The prosecutor is investigating the memo and WH staff and who had access to that memo.

The logical conclusion is that Rove and Libby got the information about Wilson's wife either directly or indirectly from the memo. The memo is not quite accurate in its information and the same innaccuracies have appeared in the information alleged to come from Rove and Libby. The ONLY assumption here Tico is yours when you claim it could have come from a State dept employee. Your assumption violates some of the known facts. Reporters have all stated they heard it from WH employees, not state dept. There is no evidence to support your assumption.


(1) You assume there are no other sources of the information aside from the State Dept. memo. (You appear to feel confident in making that assumption because there are no other "known" sources.) (2) You assume that Rove and Libby got their information from the State Dept. Memo. (3) You assume that nobody at the State Dept. revealed the information to a reporter, who then told Rove and Libby. (4) You assume that Rove and/or Libby saw the State Dept. memo.


I don't assume at all. The State Dept memo contained innaccurate information that was the same innacurate information given to reporters. The memo was not official State Dept policy nor was it widely distributed within the State dept. It was written by intelligence analysts and sent to Powell on AF1 where WH officials also had access to it. You are the one assuming here Tico. You assume that someone at State could have talked to reporters but have NO evidence of it. It is possible, but NOT probable. This is about REASONABLE conclusions Tico, not WILD A** SPECULATION which seems to be your only argument here.
1.) The state dept memo conatined innaccurate information. No other source has been revealed to have that innaccurate information.
2.) The source of the innaccurate information is the source of it. Cite another REAL source that can be referenced. You can't. You ASSUME there could be another source.
3.) No credible information supports this assumption of yours.
4.) see 1

Quote:

Those appear to be the major assumptions you made in order to reach the conclusion you did. What I've done is point out that you have made these assumptions. You are again showing an inability to either, (A) recognize when you make an assumption, or (B) admit you are making an assumption.
Most logical conclusions are built on some assumptions. I recognize that. It is you that can't seem to tell the conclusion apart from the assumptions.

Quote:

parados wrote:
The ONLY assumption I have made Tico is that the known facts are true.


I really think you believe that to be true. I really think you believe your logic is flawless. But as I've clearly pointed out above, you are making many more assumptions than that one.
I had a GREAT laugh at this one Tico. I can take my argument apart much better than you can. I know the weaknesses in it. You haven't even come close to addressing those weaknesses. Instead you attack me when you can't really attack the argument.
Quote:

parados wrote:
Your MAJOR premise seems to be that what we know can't possibly be true.


That is not my major premise. Is it possible that you see that now?

Oh? Then you will cite sources to support your claim that the information was given to a reporter by someone in the state dept? I won't hold my breath waiting. Your premise is that we can't reach conclusions because some fact MIGHT be revealed even though there is NOTHING to support that fact even existing other than idle speculation. Who testified to GJ that they got the information from a reporter? Which State Dept officials were required to testify about talking to reporters? We do KNOW that Rove and Libby testified. We do KNOW that several reporters have testified they were told the information by Rove or Libby. I assume those things we know are accurate. You assume that something else COULD have happened in spite of what we know.

The problem Tico is that you can't come up with another reasonable explanation to knock down my argument. You can only argue that my "logic is flawed" while not providing any other REASONABLE explanation that fits the facts. Your only argument makes assumptions that are in no way supported. I have laid out a case using information that is available. You argue that I don't have all the information but provide NOTHING to show what I don't have. The only one arguing that X exists is YOU Tico.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 07:15 am
To recap key points, from the above-quoted article:

Quote:
without the testimony of journalists, prosecutors have been unable to get to the bottom of the matter.


Quote:
Rove had earlier served as an adviser to Ashcroft during the course of three political campaigns. And Rove's onetime political consulting firm had been paid more than $746,000 for those services.


Quote:
a number among Ashcroft's inner circle had partisan backgrounds that included working closely with Rove.


Quote:
"The new information, that Ashcroft had not only refused to recuse himself over a period of months, but also was insisting on being personally briefed about a matter implicating his friend, Karl Rove,


Quote:
a forceful case being made by career Justice Department employees be made that the attorney general should step aside and a special prosecutor be named.


Quote:
Deputy Attorney General Comey said in a statement that the A.G.'s personal staff was also being fully recused in the matter.


Quote:
(Alberto Gonzalez, who succeeded Ashcroft as attorney general, had also?-like Ashcroft?-recused himself from the case. Gonzalez had overseen the response of White House officials to requests from investigators working the Plame case while he was White House counsel, and has also been a witness before Fitzgerald's grand jury.)


The body county mounts. Ashcroft, Tenet, Gonzalez. Fleischer, anyone?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:11 am
RE: Berger vs. Rove. Yeah, what Berger did was stupid, but the key difference here is that he cooperated and he admitted what he had done to investigators. Hence, there's really no need for moral outrage.

So we can quit trying to change the subject.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:22 am
Parados: The biggest problem with your argument is you have thus far refused to admit it has any weaknesses. All I've done is point out that you are making assumptions when you reach what you call "ONLY" conclusion possible. Because of the variables you ignore or refuse to acknowledge, the conclusion you have reached is not inescapable.

parados wrote:
and you can't show me where I have substituted x for 2.. The only thing that is funny is your attempts to claim something is completely unknown when all evidence points to it.
Quote:


Sure I can. When you assert certain known facts and add to them an unknown quantity - which you make an assuption to reach - to make the equation you want, you have engaged in the very type of thinking I've identified.

parados wrote:
I don't assume at all.


Of course you do ... I've already explained this.

parados wrote:
2.) The source of the innaccurate information is the source of it. Cite another REAL source that can be referenced. You can't. You ASSUME there could be another source.


I don't know what "innaccurate (sic) information" you're referring to. But here you highlight what I've already identified to be an assumption you've made, to-wit:
    [quote="Tico earlier"](1) You assume there are no other sources of the information aside from the State Dept. memo. (You appear to feel confident in making that assumption because there are no other "known" sources.)[/quote]

You assume that because you don't know of another source that there can be no other source. I don't know of another source, but you err when you conclude I've assumed there is one. I've no idea whether there is or isn't ... neither do you.

parados wrote:
Most logical conclusions are built on some assumptions. I recognize that.


And your argument is built on some assumptions as well. Do you now recognize that?

parados wrote:
It is you that can't seem to tell the conclusion apart from the assumptions.


That's the dumbest thing you've said in a while. Go back and read the definitions of these two words you proffered earlier and educate yourself. I am obviously not the one having a problem recognizing the difference.

parados wrote:
I can take my argument apart much better than you can. I know the weaknesses in it. You haven't even come close to addressing those weaknesses. Instead you attack me when you can't really attack the argument.


I see .... you just refuse to admit to them.

BTW: I'm not attacking you ... I'm attacking your flawed argument, and more importantly, your apparant lack of ability or reluctance to recognize these flaws.

parados wrote:
Oh? Then you will cite sources to support your claim that the information was given to a reporter by someone in the state dept? I won't hold my breath waiting.


Do you even read what I write before you reply? Have I claimed the information was given to a reporter by someone in the State Dept.? Have I even insinuated that I'm aware of any other sources? Are you capable of comprehending what I am saying, or will you continue make these fundamental mistakes in logic.

parados wrote:
Your premise is that we can't reach conclusions because some fact MIGHT be revealed even though there is NOTHING to support that fact even existing other than idle speculation.


No, I'm saying you can reach conclusions all day long based on the known facts, but when you do so you should be cognizant that you may not know all the facts there are to be known, and therefore if your conclusion is based one or more faulty assumptions, it is a faulty conclusion.

parados wrote:
Who testified to GJ that they got the information from a reporter? Which State Dept officials were required to testify about talking to reporters? We do KNOW that Rove and Libby testified. We do KNOW that several reporters have testified they were told the information by Rove or Libby. I assume those things we know are accurate. You assume that something else COULD have happened in spite of what we know.


You assume Rove/Libby got their information from the State Dept. memo. As I've said a number of times now, I don't know whether they did or didn't but neither do you. When you make the statement that that is the "ONLY" conclusion to be reached given the known facts, you make a logical leap of faith based on the assumptions I've identified.

parados wrote:
The problem Tico is that you can't come up with another reasonable explanation to knock down my argument. You can only argue that my "logic is flawed" while not providing any other REASONABLE explanation that fits the facts. Your only argument makes assumptions that are in no way supported. I have laid out a case using information that is available. You argue that I don't have all the information but provide NOTHING to show what I don't have. The only one arguing that X exists is YOU Tico.


My argument makes no assumptions, but identifies the assumptions you've made.

Are you now willing to admit that you've made certain assumptions in reaching your conclusion, but you believe the assumptions you've made are correct?
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:22 am
Murray Waas has been doing a lot of the heavy lifting on le affaire Plame from the earliest days, and this report leads the field with the backstory on Ashcroft's self-recusal.

If this were any other adminstration, the treasonous Rove would've been fired long ago and the trial would already be underway.

I cannot think of any other President who would have even tolerated someone who outed a spy during wartime.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:24 am
FreeDuck wrote:
RE: Berger vs. Rove. Yeah, what Berger did was stupid, but the key difference here is that he cooperated and he admitted what he had done to investigators. Hence, there's really no need for moral outrage.

So we can quit trying to change the subject.


"No need for moral outrage"? What he did was beyond stupid ... it was criminal. I think there's plenty of room for moral outrage.

It remains to be seen whether what Rove did was criminal.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:25 am
Ticomaya wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
RE: Berger vs. Rove. Yeah, what Berger did was stupid, but the key difference here is that he cooperated and he admitted what he had done to investigators. Hence, there's really no need for moral outrage.

So we can quit trying to change the subject.


"No need for moral outrage"? What he did was beyond stupid ... it was criminal. I think there's plenty of room for moral outrage.

It remains to be seen whether what Rove did was criminal.


He's also admitted it and being punished for it. What's the point?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:48 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
RE: Berger vs. Rove. Yeah, what Berger did was stupid, but the key difference here is that he cooperated and he admitted what he had done to investigators. Hence, there's really no need for moral outrage.

So we can quit trying to change the subject.


"No need for moral outrage"? What he did was beyond stupid ... it was criminal. I think there's plenty of room for moral outrage.

It remains to be seen whether what Rove did was criminal.


He's also admitted it and being punished for it. What's the point?


I think his point is "Dems in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... "
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:50 am
I wonder if Berger was sitting there cutting up stolen classified documents and thinking to himself "this is an honest mistake". Smile

He's not yet been sentenced, so he's not being punished.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:55 am
If Berger needs to be punished you won't hear me complaining, let him be further punished. (his clearances were taken away)
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 09:17 am
Ticomaya wrote:
I think his point is "Dems in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... "


Well, that was certainly his headline. My point was, saying that dems do bad stuff too doesn't negate the bad stuff you do.

Not to mention it's not just "Dems" who are "throwing stones".
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 09:22 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I think his point is "Dems in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... "


Well, that was certainly his headline. My point was, saying that dems do bad stuff too doesn't negate the bad stuff you do.


True, but I was under the impression that instead of trying to "negate" any bad stuff, he was pointing out a double standard employed by the media.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 09:32 am
Ticomaya wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I think his point is "Dems in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... "


Well, that was certainly his headline. My point was, saying that dems do bad stuff too doesn't negate the bad stuff you do.


True, but I was under the impression that instead of trying to "negate" any bad stuff, he was pointing out a double standard employed by the media.


A good case in point regarding the media's double standard is that very few here seem to realize that Berger has not yet been sentenced for his crime. The reason for that is what he did and what's happening to him gets very little press.

Does anyone think that would be the case if Rove or anyone from the Bush administration had done what Berger did? Omygosh it would be front-page headlines every single day! The most minute detail would be splashed about as if it were monumental news.



Hilarious.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 09:40 am
Does it matter that he hasn't yet been sentenced? He's agreed to plead guilty.

Berger's story has gotten press, but there's not much to it because he's admitted destroying documents. That doesn't leave much to report. Add to that that he's not part of the current administration in power, and you have very little interest.

Tico, the title of the article was "Dems in glass houses shouldn't throw stones", not "media in glass houses..." or "media double standards...". If you want to divert this discussion to one about media reporting, that's another topic. I much preferred the discussion about the actual question at hand, which is did Rove, or someone else close to the pres, or Novak, violate the law? And if so what should happen to them?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 09:45 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Tico, the title of the article was "Dems in glass houses shouldn't throw stones", not "media in glass houses..." or "media double standards...".


You're suggesting there's a substantive difference? Laughing

Read the article again. It's about the MSM.

FD wrote:
If you want to divert this discussion to one about media reporting, that's another topic. I much preferred the discussion about the actual question at hand, which is did Rove, or someone else close to the pres, or Novak, violate the law? And if so what should happen to them?


Just responding to your posts, FD.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 09:49 am
It's as if some sort of terrible memory-wasting disease is afflicting those who claim to be our most faithful public servants.

Key members of the Bush administration who appear to have no trouble remembering their donors and supporters nevertheless are having serious problems remembering answers to questions asked of them by prosecutors and investigators. Here's a prayer you are welcome to use, JW:

Quote:
Dear Gawd, please visit them with Your healing power so that their memories may be fully restored and heal their forked tongues so that they may start speaking the truth. For a change. Amen.
0 Replies
 
 

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