How do you hold opinions without being judgmental? Is......

I'm not sure I want to help you to "shut " your mother up.

You certainly sound judgemental.

What can you base your ideas on except predictions of the future.And those come under the laws of probability.You are guessing an outcome to your cousin's actions.Some people marry young and do OK and some,taking your advice,don't and are killed or maimed or something else bad.One never knows.

Your idea of "experiencing life" may well not be someone else's.You need to define that expression and then we might have more idea what to say about it.

I would agree that 19 is too young to get married but I wouldn't go into bat on it.In my case it is just a hunch and based on seeing others do it but those others are not your cousin.And a few of the ones I've seen did alright with it.Suppose,for example,your cousin gets married and has two quick kids which they can't afford and then one of the kids grows up to be another David Beckham.
Unlikely maybe.But possible and you have no idea.
Suppose he doesn't and loses his girl and then gets married at 28 to another and then there's a tragic outcome.Your cousin might blame you then.

The thing is that people deal with their lives their own way.OK?

Advice, unasked for, is criticism.
Advice, unasked for, is criticism

But since you ask...

judgmental: Inclined to make judgments, especially moral or personal ones

o·pin·ion·at·ed: Holding stubbornly and often unreasonably to one's own opinions.

It is easy for a young man to be judgmental or even opinionated, In fact, I have found many times that it is very difficult not to be both.
In your case, in this instance, your held opinions may stem from a genuine concern for the well being of your cousin and his future family. After all, Marriage is a big step, and an awesome responsibility. When a baby or two ever enter into the picture, a steady income will be absolutely necessary to put food on the table and to pay the rent or mortgage. There are diapers, clothing, utilities... The list goes on.

However, the rationale of one, may not be the rationale of another. Your cousin could be looking at things a little differently than you. He may be thrusting into this new life with the faith that he will get what he needs as he goes along; he may feel that things will fall into place for him; that things will work out just fine. And he may be right. Do you know that an employer is more likely to hire a man who is married than he is to hire someone who is single?... It is because the employer knows a married man has a moral responsibility to stay employed.

You definitely shouldn't feel bad about making judgements about anything, after all, that's one of the things we thinking human beings do. And in this case you are only weighing between what is happening in your cousin's life and what could be better, or ideal based on logic and your cumulative knowledge.

I do find that I have to agree with your mother in that, in this you are perhaps being a bit "too judgemental". However, I must also agree with you, in that, in this, you seem to be pushing the envelope of "judgemental" more into the realm of "opinionated".

You can't hold an opinion on anything without being judgemental. If you have formed an opinion, you will have done so through judgement. Keeping an open mind will allow you to ever introduce new evidence into a never fully formed opinion.

If you are careful to always keep an open mind, your judgements will never be finalized, and your opinions will not cease to evolve; if you always keep an open mind, Your opinions and the truth will tend towards being synonymous.

Say hi to your mom and tell her you love her even though she knows...

...And something a bit off topic... Try to be nice to everyone even no matter how much of a dick they are. People will see how much of a dick they are, and they will also see how nice you are :wink:

It's all relative. If your mother agreed with you you would be right headed, not judgemental.

The general opinion rules, but the general opinion is not a constant thing. It is as fleeting as the wind.

Notice that if you judge someone to be beneath you you have been judgemental, and if you judge someone to be above you you have displayed sound judgement.

What is the relationship, judgemental/sound judgement?

A person saying that someone is judgemental does sometimes actually agree. The fact that someone voiced it first just offers them the oportrtunity to appear open minded by being closed. Silence is gold, remember?

And lastly, there is a difference between being open minded and not caring. I am ok with gay marriage and recreational drug use, but it is not neccesarily because I am open minded. I just don't care. Let monkey see monkey do. Evolutionary dead ends sort themselves out.

"I'm not sure I want to help you to "shut " your mother up.

You certainly sound judgemental.

What can you base your ideas on except predictions of the future.And those come under the laws of probability.You are guessing an outcome to your cousin's actions.Some people marry young and do OK and some,taking your advice,don't and are killed or maimed or something else bad.One never knows.

Your idea of "experiencing life" may well not be someone else's.You need to define that expression and then we might have more idea what to say about it.

I would agree that 19 is too young to get married but I wouldn't go into bat on it.In my case it is just a hunch and based on seeing others do it but those others are not your cousin.And a few of the ones I've seen did alright with it.Suppose,for example,your cousin gets married and has two quick kids which they can't afford and then one of the kids grows up to be another David Beckham.
Unlikely maybe.But possible and you have no idea.
Suppose he doesn't and loses his girl and then gets married at 28 to another and then there's a tragic outcome.Your cousin might blame you then.

The thing is that people deal with their lives their own way.OK?"

Wow. Way to completely miss the point of the thread. My anecdote about my cousin was just a lead in to a discussion on the concepts of open mindedness/judgmental/opinionated . I'm not here to debate whether my cousin's decision/behavior is right or wrong. You don't know him, his life situtaion, or his personality so arguing with me(or lecturing as you tried) on that topic is down right ignorant.

Secondly, did you not see the emoticons next to my comment about my mother. I was obviously being facetious and kidding about "shutting my mother up". Pull that stick out of your ass, till some land with it, and grow a sense of humor.
In the future could you please excercise at least a minimal level of reading comprehension before you respond to my threads and attack me for no apparent reason. Thanks.

Maybe the people at these boards aren't as intellectual as I first presumed.

I agree. There is a difference, but a subtle difference. The difference is huge in delivery though. Opinion is what you believe about in a situation whereas judgmental is how you feel about others.

Here is an example of giving your opinion - I believe that 19 is too young for marriage.

Here is an example of being judgmental - They are too young to be married.

Very minor difference, however, people respond better when you state your opinion rather than judging others. It comes out making you look bad and being closed minded. Also, it would be helpful if you said in most cases. You can hold and honest opinion, without coming across being judgmental, by saying things along the lines, like…"I feel that 19 is too young for marriage. It seems to me that most people haven't fully experienced life at 19 to make a good marriage." That sounds more like an opinion rather than - oh, there marriage will never last, they are too young." Even if you have the same facts to support your opinion and use these facts in the second statement - it certainly is judgmental.

Then to be open minded - you need to realize that yes people do get married at 19 and have happy successful marriages. You have to be open that others may feel and experience things differently than you. Maybe your cousin is much more mature than you for example. You need to realize just becomes something is not true for you, it may be true another. You also need to LISTEN to another's opinion.

You may not be overall closed minded, but really you this situation you certainly were.

And as you stated with some one about age of marriage - I am simply using this as an example, perhaps as puff did or was it spenius.

And you rude comments at the end certainly do reflect a judgmental personality.

BG:-

You introduced your cousin.Not me.I just used your example to explain a general point about probability.I was discussing your open mindedness/
judgemental/opinionated problem throughout on Ciceronian principles.

I know very well that I don't know anything about your cousin nor whether whatever he decides is right or wrong.Neither does anybody else including you.

Can't you read English properly?You don't seem to be able to see the point you yourself raised.

What would you have liked me to say?

First Spendius: Just drop it. You were wrong and posting off-topic so give it up. If you re-read my original post, it is beyond evident that the issue of my cousin's marriage was not what I wanted to discuss. I posed about 10 questions and none were on my cousins decision.
If you have something to add to the topic, I'd be more than happy to hear it. Otherwise kindly drop it.

Secondly: "I agree. There is a difference, but a subtle difference. The difference is huge in delivery though. Opinion is what you believe about in a situation whereas judgmental is how you feel about others.

Here is an example of giving your opinion - I believe that 19 is too young for marriage.

Here is an example of being judgmental - They are too young to be married.

Very minor difference, however, people respond better when you state your opinion rather than judging others. It comes out making you look bad and being closed minded. Also, it would be helpful if you said in most cases. You can hold and honest opinion, without coming across being judgmental, by saying things along the lines, like…"I feel that 19 is too young for marriage. It seems to me that most people haven't fully experienced life at 19 to make a good marriage." That sounds more like an opinion rather than - oh, there marriage will never last, they are too young." Even if you have the same facts to support your opinion and use these facts in the second statement - it certainly is judgmental. "

Hey thanks for the insightful response. I think that is very good advice you bring up which I will heed, as I agree most people respond better to that manner of presentation/speech.

BUT, when you think about it, isn't what you're suggesting backwards?

You are suggesting I make broad generalizations that marriage at 19 is potentially harmful, when I know only a very small percentage of 19 year olds in the world. My opinion would be based off my friends, when in fact the majority of the 19 year olds around the world could be ready for marriage at such a young age.
On the other hand, I know my cousin very well as we grew up in the same city. I am familiar with his life, mannerisms, personality and think I have the ability to make a fair assessment on whether such a behavior is good for him or not.

So in actuality wouldn't it make more sense to say "Marriage may be okay for most 19 year olds, but I think it is inappropriate for my cousin who I know very well" Just throwing that out there. I would never say such a thing to anyone outside my mother/father, but it just seems to make sense to hold that position than the complete opposite one you suggested.

Also, anyone care to comment on the concept of "open mindedness". I guess I don't know what it means to be "open minded". You can see my criminal anecdote above to note my dilemma.
Is condoning any behavior (no matter how morally impermissible) "open-minded" or ignorant or something else?
Can you be against things and still be "open minded"?

Re: How do you hold opinions without being judgmental? Is...
What does it mean to be open minded

Bubba, I believe it was Lionel Trilling who said "Some people are so open-minded, their brains fall out."

Now, my opinion :wink: : In a world that bombards us daily with the worst propaganda and that's fraught with moral issues, we'd be FOOLISH not to judge (in the sense of evaluating and discriminating---and, where appropriate, rejecting). It all boils down to whether there are absolutes and Truth.

And as far as I'm concerned, anytime a person says something, regardless of how they phrase it, it's "their" opinion. I really have never understood the tempest-in-a-teapot about "make sure people know it's just your opinion." It might be simply an American problem, bec. I've lived in Europe (and also had dealings with Russians), where folks are a lot more forthright in their conversations, and it's downright REFRESHING! Nobody pussy-foots around all the time, truckling to some sort of political correctness/silly "I'm OK-You're OK" nonsense. People freely and vigorously exchange ideas w/o immediately getting things stuck in their craws. If they disagree with something, they simply state their reasons/views, and that's it.

I will give you ONE example of what I **DO** consider inappropriate judgmentalism: at a blog, the writer scathingly condemned the German populace for not having "done anything" about the Shoah. I pointed out to him that if he, living in a democratic society, can't even do anything about the war in Iraq (he's opposed to it), then how in the WORLD were the Germans supposed to "do" anything under the likes of the savage Brownshirt Regime?

Good luck in your trying to sort things out!

Diagknowz great post! I enjoyed it much.

"" really have never understood the tempest-in-a-teapot about "make sure people know it's just your opinion." "


I could not agree more with that comment. I HATE it when discussing an issue with people and they make a point to say "oh well that is just your opinion" or "this is merely my opinion".

I will have to re-read your post and respond later when I'm not falling asleep. As of now, it appears that you think the term "open mindedness" doesn't even really exist as everyone is issuing an opinion in some form or another. Am I correct in this assumption? While I agree with your sentiments on the need for candor in our speech, I'm unsure of exactly what you consider to be "open/closed minded". I'll mull it over when I'm awake. Hasta manana.

Bubba, I'm sooo glad you didn't find my post too "digressing."

OK, about the open-mindedness: first of all, lemme put it in historical/social context. If I'm not mistaken, the emphasis on being "open-minded" goes back to the late '60's and early 70's, a period of devastating social upheaval/dissolution. In other words, read "keep an open mind" as a code-phrase for "make sure you don't submit action/comment/teaching X to scrutiny." (And by teaching, I'm talking about things like ads, religious doctrines, political creeds, underlying messages in shows, etc.) The fundamental tenet of that era (and one that has, tragically, permeated the very air we breathe) is that there is no objective Truth, there are no absolutes or "right/wrong" categories. This is sheer poison. It's the kind of thing that (in a nutshell) ultimately results in total decadence----->anarchy----->totalitarianism. (If you want a graphic example, just look at the Weimar Republic, which preceded Nazism.)

I've never understood why people don't see that in the same way that the physical/biological realm is laden with toxins/viruses/bacteria (which we don't just "keep an open mind about"---we try to combat them), the world of ideas/morals/ethix also is laden with dangerous contents.

In the "old days" (pre-60's), there was this thing called "prudence" and "wisdom," concepts which militate greatly against mindless "open-mindedness...

I do think that there is a form of "open-mindedness" that's appropriate: for example, if you're not sure about all the details/ramifications of something. In other words, when you're still sorting things out on item X.

I don't know if this sufficiently answers your question, so let me know. It is a PET PEEVE of mine, so I might talk your ear off!

Bubba, at the risk of falling under your hammer, you really do sound judgemental. After reading your replies to Spendius I am left with the impression of a boxer with gloves that are too big to fit him... Swing away!

The same is true about fools as about "intellectuals", as you call them. It takes one to know one.

Bubba wrote

First Spendius: Just drop it.

This is a debate forum.It is impolite to ram out instructions in such a place and particularly such an instruction as that.Keep that up and you had better get a mirror and have a debate with yourself.

Bubba - I think you are one of those people who just want to argue for arguments sake. Please, I was simply trying to help you phrase things so you will not appear so judgmental. It is a simple example; please do not look so deep into it. I feel you can generalize on your observations, as long as you state this is through my personal experiences. I don't think anyone would take offense to that. And if you really want some steam behind any observations, simply look up some stats (hopefully from an unbiased source) on the internet.

As far as some one you know well and feel you can make an assessment, you can still make an opinion without coming off like an arrogant a$$. I can make an example, with my friend. She was marrying some one that completely took me by surprise. I thought the were night and day. I made a comment like, wow…I would not expect them to get married, they are so different, but then maybe opposites do attract and they may compliment one another and they be a friend and support them anyway you can. You stated your opinion, but still was open minded.

You are welcome to state things any way you want, but if you care not to appear and be judgmental and closed minded, be mindful how you state your opinion.

As I stated before open minded would be willing to look at a viewpoint different than yours. In the marriage example, you may think your cousin getting married is a disaster, but listen to what your mom or cousin says about the situation. Not just hear what they say, but actively listen and consider that perhaps it may not be a disaster. You can still disagree with the marriage, but if you truly listened to the other side, you would be open minded and also open to the fact, that this may not be the best situation, but it could still work.

I think diagknowz by letting other people know it is your opinion, you are showing respect for the other person - you are not criticizing them. It could very well be cultural and/or personal. I know many people who are very forthright and I love them to death. I also know they do not have a mean bone in their body so they are saying it not to be mean, but that is there way and I have no issue with that. However, some people are more sensitive and if I were to say something in a similar way to them, it could bring tears. So I tend to change my tone depending on the person. But I am a manager so this sort of change in dealing with people is key to success in my job.

So I guess it is truly up to you. You can deliver it straight forward and not pretty it up, but if you are dealing with a sensitive topic and/or person, you may not get the response you want. If you hate the response of "that is just your opinion" well you are going to have to deal with you if you deliver things in a certain way. Really it is your choice since you cannot change others.

I also think you can be candidate in certain answers or deliveries if it is directed specifically at an issue rather than a person. Like it or not when you direct something at a person, whether a 100% true or not, you may not get a reaction you are happy with.

Well, i guess i'll put my oar in . . .

Certainly people are judgmental, it goes with the territory. We awake in the morning and make a judgment about how we will start our respective days--breakfast? maybe some coffee? maybe i'd rather have tea. We continue the process throughout the day. At the store, we decide if we think the hamburger looks good, or if we'll go with the fish. We decide which pair of shoes we think would look best on our feet. It is impossible to get from one end of the day to the other without constantly judging.

Which brings us to Bubba's situation--being judgmental about people. This is also something which we cannot avoid. We decide whom we like and whom we dislike. It is a natural, ordinary thing. I personally do not think that being judgmental about others is a problem--intolerance, however, would be. I see young people on the street wearing baggy pants which slide off their asses, and several t-shirts, and i have two thoughts--first, that they look ridiculous; second, that i'd roast alive in even just warm weather wearing that much clothing. I'm being judgmental. I do not, however, attempt to interfer with the choices made by those wearing such outfits, nor think that anyone should interfere--i believe that no one should be allowed to interfere in such choices. I consider that to be tolerance.

There is nothing wrong with being judgmental. There is very definitely something wrong with being intolerant.

Can't you just shrug at whatever they do.And be intolerant of ants in your pants.
I couldn't care less who anybody marries or even what they marry.Somebody must have a reason for pontificating on a cousin's marriage.
Suggest some possible reasons and not Agony Aunt type stuff which is 100% dross.Selfish reasons I mean that justify the busy-body response.

OK, Bubba, I'm back with more of my . I thought about the topic some more after I got home and came up with a few further thoughts---for whatever they might be worth (I've not read any of the posts between your reply to mine last night and this one, so everybody who posted since then, please forgive if any of my granulets overlap with what you might've said; I'm exhausted and am doing only minimal stuff, i.e. not reading as much as I usually would):

Nobody really has an "open mind," bec. even from the time we're born, there're sundry influences on us that "imprint" themselves on our minds and are ever-present as we continue to live and interact with daily life in the broadest sense. Early training (or lack thereof, as the case may be), experiences, one's cosmology (I use that term rather than "religion," bec. even the most hardened atheist has a "Grand Paradigm," as it were, with which to order/structure/process/evaluate everything that makes up life)------all these "furnish" our mind and affect how we think. Strictly speaking, the longer a person lives, the less "open" his mind is.

There're also the genetic "givens" that make you unique: your intelligence, your motivation, your talents...We're simply NOT a tabula rasa at birth.

Besides, to borrow a bit of cant from the Darwinist paradigm, man wouldn't have survived if he had kept a perpetually open mind; he has to "put 2 + 2 together" all the time. After the 1st time he sees a grizzly, and he "bearly" escapes getting ripped to shreds, he'd be an idiot----and a goner!---if the next time he saw a grizzly, he approached him with wide open arms and an "open mind." "Well, hello, again, Mr. Grizzly! Our last mtg. wasn't optimal, but, hey, we all have our bad days. I bet I just happened to catch you at a bad time. How 'bout a beer, ole buddy?"

Facetiousness aside, watch sometime whether those whose favorite mantra is "keep an open mind" actually practice it themselves. I've found they don't. At best they might have contempt for, but more often they just plain HATE anyone who doesn't believe in a Swiss cheese mind. Now, THERE'S a conundrum for ya: how is contempt or hate consistent with an open mind?

Bottom line: what "Keep an open mind" usually means is "Don't confuse me with the facts," or "Don't remind me that there's a Design to life and that it doesn't bend to my puny solipsistic will/desires," or "My views don't have a leg to stand on, but I'll be darned if I admit it!"

pondering
Great posts to all. I've enjoyed all your feedback so far. Hopefully, I will respond to all the points offered sooner than later. I welcome any more comments in the mean time, as I'm finding the various perspectives on "open mindeness" and the like, very interesting.