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Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh? Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was

 
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:06 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

[

Neither Job nor Jesus suffered eternally.


Job 2;3 has Yahweh saying that Satan moved him to sin and do evil without a just cause and for you to accept to abdicate your responsibility for your sins is also highly immoral.

On Jesus dying for you.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:10 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

livinglava wrote:

[q "not one (sparrow) will fall to the ground outside your Father's care" (Matthew 10:29)


Is there no hell in the Christian theology to you?

Are we all bound for heaven or will some be outside of the Fathers loving care?

There is hell and there is purgatory, which is hell where you can eventually get through the negativity.

I believe all souls are ultimately heaven-bound, but that we have to go through hell to get there, and some of us remain hell-bent longer than others.

Of course I can't be sure that some people aren't capable of rejecting salvation forever and holding their course of descent ever deeper, but I don't see how they can stand the torment eternally.

Even if you're stuck permanently in hell, there must be a point where you begin begging for mercy, salvation, etc. and all the things you were told were available to you once upon a time. What does evil do with such cries for mercy and salvation, though, if God/Jesus is no longer listening? Idk because I can't see there being a limit to forgiveness/salvation/redemption; I just think the deeper you go, the harder it is to turn your life around.

You have to be reborn of spirit, but can some people become so addicted to negativity that they reject the possibility of spiritual rebirth forever? Idk but I don't think so.
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:15 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

That wasn’t a compliment.

You’re not interested in talking, just proseletyzing.


I did not quote anything from the Gnostic Christian religion.

If you want to stick to logic and reason and stay away from both the Christian and Gnostic Christian myths, I am all in.

A lot of what I do is based on the immoral Christian tenets so some references to it are usually present in what I wright.

Scriptures do say that to perfect our wisdom, we are to get out of the Christian dogma and myths and I am all 9in for that.

Regards
DL
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:17 am
@Greatest I am,
You could start with
Jesus and the Goddess by Freke and Gandy
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:22 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

You forget that Adam and Eve could not know that the other trees were good as they did not have any knowledge of good and evil.

Christianity, as shown by the tree of good and evil, is a dualistic thinking religion.

Here you are trying to take the Yin out of Yin and Yang.

The story is basically saying that there are plenty of good choices, and those good choices don't cause bad consequences and ultimately harm/destruction/death.

Then the story says that there is also a path where you can make BOTH good AND bad choices, but the bad choices will still have negative consequences no matter how much good you choose/do.

Yin and Yang, I would say, are inherent in the temptation to sin. The story of A&E explains how original sin factors into the creation, and so sin is always present in one form or another.

We can and should strive to resist temptation and avoid sin, but sin is still going to happen in one form or another. Isn't that basically what YinYang philosophy says? I.e. that yin and yang are part and parcel of the same existence and that you can't have one without the other?


Avoid sin, yes, when possible, but the systems here, evolution, forces us to sin.

That may be why you sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

If Adam did not do what you call a sin, Yahweh's plan would have been derailed.

Would you do exactly what he did and sin or would you refrain and throw Yahweh's plan off the rails?

Did Adam do the right thing or the wrong thing?

Regards
DL

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:28 am
@Greatest I am,
Wisdom is not the same as knowallitism, I know it’s not a real word, but it sums you up.

Smugness and wisdom don’t usually go hand in hand.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:48 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

You could start with
Jesus and the Goddess by Freke and Gandy


I use some or their work on occasion.

I don't recall if I read that particular work or not I will look it up. Thanks.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:51 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Wisdom is not the same as knowallitism, I know it’s not a real word, but it sums you up.

Smugness and wisdom don’t usually go hand in hand.


Neither does psychobabble.

I speak of what I know to be real and nothing else.

Regards
DL
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:56 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

Avoid sin, yes, when possible, but the systems here, evolution, forces us to sin.

We aren't necessarily forced to sin, but we go on sinning because we're not always aware and/or in control, which is different than being 'forced.'

Quote:
That may be why you sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

It's not a question of sin being a happy fault or not; it's that we should rejoice in the good news that there is life beyond sin, i.e. because God has given us a way to get forgiven/saved/redeemed and keep progressing in virtue despite sin.

Quote:
If Adam did not do what you call a sin, Yahweh's plan would have been derailed.

Would you do exactly what he did and sin or would you refrain and throw Yahweh's plan off the rails?

Did Adam do the right thing or the wrong thing?

God told them they would die if they at of that tree and they ended up doing so because they got tricked by the serpent.

How can anyone say they wouldn't have gotten tricked by the serpent? They had no forewarning of anything but that they would die from eating the forbidden fruit.

The serpent obviously had the ability to lie and trick them by causing them to misinterpret God's good will as a ploy to keep them from becoming like Him.

So the serpent sowed the seeds of envy toward God in A&E. They were already made in His image (and in each others'), yet they became tempted by the thought of inequality and the possibility of equality with God.

So who is immune from the temptations of envy/jealousy and power-hunger?

Answer: no one, but at least we can learn from A&E and others who have fallen to temptation to try to resist it and overcome the temptation in ourselves to make better choices.

Why shouldn't we rejoice in our ability to learn from and overcome sin in this way? It doesn't make it good that sin happens, but it is a silver lining around a dark cloud that some good can come from bad situations.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 10:59 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Wisdom is not the same as knowallitism, I know it’s not a real word, but it sums you up.

Smugness and wisdom don’t usually go hand in hand.

Accusing someone of 'knowallitism' is judgmental and fails to recognize that people can have thoughts on practically any subject, even if they're not experts, and it is a good thing for them to engage in discussion with others about their thoughts, because either or both people might learn something from the discussion.

When you talk about 'knowallitism' you're more focused on discussion as a display of status than as communication.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:14 am
@Greatest I am,
No you don’t, you lecture and disparage in a smug sanctimonious manner.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:23 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

Avoid sin, yes, when possible, but the systems here, evolution, forces us to sin.

We aren't necessarily forced to sin, but we go on sinning because we're not always aware and/or in control, which is different than being 'forced.'

Quote:
That may be why you sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

It's not a question of sin being a happy fault or not; it's that we should rejoice in the good news that there is life beyond sin, i.e. because God has given us a way to get forgiven/saved/redeemed and keep progressing in virtue despite sin.

Quote:
If Adam did not do what you call a sin, Yahweh's plan would have been derailed.

Would you do exactly what he did and sin or would you refrain and throw Yahweh's plan off the rails?

Did Adam do the right thing or the wrong thing?

God told them they would die if they at of that tree and they ended up doing so because they got tricked by the serpent.

How can anyone say they wouldn't have gotten tricked by the serpent? They had no forewarning of anything but that they would die from eating the forbidden fruit.

The serpent obviously had the ability to lie and trick them by causing them to misinterpret God's good will as a ploy to keep them from becoming like Him.

So the serpent sowed the seeds of envy toward God in A&E. They were already made in His image (and in each others'), yet they became tempted by the thought of inequality and the possibility of equality with God.

So who is immune from the temptations of envy/jealousy and power-hunger?

Answer: no one, but at least we can learn from A&E and others who have fallen to temptation to try to resist it and overcome the temptation in ourselves to make better choices.

Why shouldn't we rejoice in our ability to learn from and overcome sin in this way? It doesn't make it good that sin happens, but it is a silver lining around a dark cloud that some good can come from bad situations.


When you answer my question, we can chat. Till then I ignore your words as ignored mine and you are showing yourself to be a moral coward, who, it seems, would derail Yahweh's plan.

If you are an evolving creature, and you are, then you have to compete and create a victim that would think evil has befallen him.

Evolution is responsible for all human to human sin and evil.

I am not surprised to see you deny your own ideology, as express in your Easter hymn.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:25 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

izzythepush wrote:

Wisdom is not the same as knowallitism, I know it’s not a real word, but it sums you up.

Smugness and wisdom don’t usually go hand in hand.

Accusing someone of 'knowallitism' is judgmental and fails to recognize that people can have thoughts on practically any subject, even if they're not experts, and it is a good thing for them to engage in discussion with others about their thoughts, because either or both people might learn something from the discussion.

When you talk about 'knowallitism' you're more focused on discussion as a display of status than as communication.


+ 1

Where did the upvote option go?

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:26 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

No you don’t, you lecture and disparage in a smug sanctimonious manner.


Take your personal garbage and bite me.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2020 11:51 am
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?
Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer.
What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

It’s an interesting question. Before going on I need to clarify that I see no evidence (anywhere) that hell is anything other than final death. (Let me know if you differ)

I’ll have to give my personal context for my answer to have any meaning. There is no way I can answer truthfully without sounding like the most elitist asshole in the world. I don’t think I’ve discussed much with you previously so kindly make no assumptions.
We do need some kind of broader context so let’s assume we are talking inside the context of 'an unbiased reader of the Bible', not the stereotypical 'Christian'.

The scriptures do imply the things you are saying. I don’t know the full explanation, but the idea that God would include humans who he didn’t breathe into, is not unreasonable. I see no other way that we become a living soul (Adam in Genesis). I assume the 'soulless' are a necessary part of his plan.

That said, It is quite possible that we live among the very animals that the materialist interpretation of existence say we all are. I will say that I have met people in which I could not sense any living soul. If they die, where is the injustice? From an atheist POV, they did not expect anything else.

I am assuming you meant you were atheist since you said you weren’t a 'believer'. But you obviously think about this stuff so I’m guessing you’re not one of those lacking a living soul.



Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2020 02:03 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?
Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer.
What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

It’s an interesting question. Before going on I need to clarify that I see no evidence (anywhere) that hell is anything other than final death. (Let me know if you differ)

I’ll have to give my personal context for my answer to have any meaning. There is no way I can answer truthfully without sounding like the most elitist asshole in the world. I don’t think I’ve discussed much with you previously so kindly make no assumptions.
We do need some kind of broader context so let’s assume we are talking inside the context of 'an unbiased reader of the Bible', not the stereotypical 'Christian'.

The scriptures do imply the things you are saying. I don’t know the full explanation, but the idea that God would include humans who he didn’t breathe into, is not unreasonable. I see no other way that we become a living soul (Adam in Genesis). I assume the 'soulless' are a necessary part of his plan.

That said, It is quite possible that we live among the very animals that the materialist interpretation of existence say we all are. I will say that I have met people in which I could not sense any living soul. If they die, where is the injustice? From an atheist POV, they did not expect anything else.

I am assuming you meant you were atheist since you said you weren’t a 'believer'. But you obviously think about this stuff so I’m guessing you’re not one of those lacking a living soul.



Hell is an invention of the church to scare the purse strings into opening faster and wider so that the false guilt the church also fosters has as much cash coming it's way as it can con out of the marks.

All a religion is, is a tribal unit whose members shared beliefs or thinking system.

I am a Gnostic Christian who knows we are all born believers, given that we have tribal instincts, and decide what to really believe, from that initial POV, when we mature and can judge the worth of the tribe we are born into.

Mine was Catholicism, to which I owe quite a lot for the help given to me as a youth, but when maturity hit and they basically refused to improve, I left for Gnostic Christianity.

I do not read the Christian myth or our own literally.

Regards
DL
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2020 05:25 am
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
I do not read the Christian myth or our own literally.

And not the post you are answering either.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 01:53 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
I do not read the Christian myth or our own literally.

And not the post you are answering either.


You are a literalist and I am not so there was no point in my trying to give you more unless you accepted your myth as a myth.

You do not like my style and I do not like your go all over the place rambling style so -----

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
 

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