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Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh? Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was

 
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2020 03:17 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
What makes you say Yahweh was incapable of sinning when scriptures say he put lies into the prophets?

Regards
DL

Got a reference for that? Not say'n it ain’t there, just can’t recall it and would like to know.


God lies by proxy;

He sends prophets or lying spirits to deceive.

Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets. 2 Chronicles 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people. Jeremiah 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jeremiah 20:7
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet. Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. 2 Thessalonians 2:11

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2020 03:21 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:

Quote:
He could not reproduce when he did not know he was naked.


Truly he could have.

Quote:
What makes you say Yahweh was incapable of sinning when... he put lies into the prophets.


No, that occurred when Adam and Eve chose on their own to devour the apple. From that moment forward, lies and deceit, along with other matters of wrongdoing, were festering inside the brains/minds/being of all humans. REMEmber, according to the teachings, God gave people 'free will'. The prophets were never forced to lie, it was their decision to do so.


It seems you are the liar on both cases.

That or you just have never read your bible.

I spoke of god lying just above, and the information below shows that Yahweh, not that that genocidal prick is real, that shows that he denies us all any free will.

Enjoy.

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then the is is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.

What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL


Greatest I am
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2020 03:22 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Hey DL, you just gonna leave us hang'n?


Apologies for being tardy.

I have been busy.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2020 03:23 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I think he's currently being smug somewhere else. He tends to disappear for weeks on end.


Yes. I am prolific and many need correction.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2020 03:33 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
it seems that you are the liar on both cases...

I do not share your opinion on this. We have differing views on the same matter. One of both of us may be correct. Maybe we will find out after we shed our mortal cover and become blossoms in the spiritual world.

Quote:
That or you just never read your bible.


I was basically indoctrinated into biblical principles and stories from the day of my earthly birth.

Mother read a a selection each morning at the breakfast table. Once I was able to read, I was given a bible. I have several versions. So, yeah, I am quite certain that I am familiar with it all. Again, we have different takes on the same verses.
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2020 03:58 pm
@Jewels Vern,
Jewels Vern wrote:

I think people should learn what the words mean and stop making up things to explain what they don't understand.

Sin, singular, is the absence of spirit. Adam had a spirit but it died and so he was unable to bequeath a spirit to his offspring. That is why everybody is born in sin, not because Mommy and Daddy did the big nasty. That is why a savior had to die in our place and make it possible to create a new spirit for us.

Sins, plural, are mistakes, such as throwing a dart and missing the bullseye. Christians are baptised into Christ's death, and dead bodies don't commit sins, so sins are not an issue for Christians. There is no more forgiveness. Either you believe in Jesus and are saved or you don't believe and are lost.

Adam and Eve did not commit sin, they ate a poisonous fruit. God did not punish them, he merely listed the consequences of eating the poisonous fruit.


I disagree with the twist of evil you give the story.

I don't know if most Christians even have a clue what they believe of Eden.

You call Eden a fall, yet sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

Would you eat from the TOKOGE and further god's plan as Adam did, or would you not eat of it and derail Yahweh's plan?

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2020 04:03 pm
@Jewels Vern,
Jewels Vern wrote:

Quote:
I agree with the direction you’re going in, but where did you get the idea that the fruit was poisonous?


God said "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt die."

Mommy tells baby don't touch the stove because it will hurt. Baby touches the stove and gets hurt. Is that a sin against Mommy? Is the hurt a punishment inflicted by Mommy? Is Mommy evil because she kept a hot stove even though she knew it could hurt baby?

Let's get real, ok?


It would be an evil mother indeed if she was omnipresent and just let her child harm itself needlessly.

You are talking apples and oranges to try to justify your poor parent, Yahweh's vile and immoral actions.

He put Satan right there and watched as Eve was tempted and Adam sinned.

He then murdered them by neglect and hiding away the tree of life.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2020 12:17 pm
@Greatest I am,
I had already said my goodbyes here but you raise an interesting point, albeit not in this particular scripture. Kings is some pretty dense text but the gist of it I get.

When read from the top of the chapter, it is obvious that the current King of Israel is a self aggrandizing fool. He picks his ‘prophets' only from those who agree with him. He is like a president who only wants to hear from advisers who agree with him and each other, and say good things about him.

Apparently God thinks things should be shaken up, so he sends a skilled angel to give the right words to the kings idiot advisers to convince the king to go to war, which will definitely shake things up. Note that the one true prophet (Micaiah) did not do the lying.

You may insist that I’m trying to get God off on a technicality but that would be nitpicking about the word rather than the spirit of the law. You have to decide whether you are going to be a lawyer or a lover.
If God had lied to Micaiah it might be different. Lying to those other dirtbags (including the King) I have no problem with. There is scripture to back that up if you're interested.

Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2020 03:45 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

I had already said my goodbyes here but you raise an interesting point, albeit not in this particular scripture. Kings is some pretty dense text but the gist of it I get.

When read from the top of the chapter, it is obvious that the current King of Israel is a self aggrandizing fool. He picks his ‘prophets' only from those who agree with him. He is like a president who only wants to hear from advisers who agree with him and each other, and say good things about him.

Apparently God thinks things should be shaken up, so he sends a skilled angel to give the right words to the kings idiot advisers to convince the king to go to war, which will definitely shake things up. Note that the one true prophet (Micaiah) did not do the lying.

You may insist that I’m trying to get God off on a technicality but that would be nitpicking about the word rather than the spirit of the law. You have to decide whether you are going to be a lawyer or a lover.
If God had lied to Micaiah it might be different. Lying to those other dirtbags (including the King) I have no problem with. There is scripture to back that up if you're interested.




If a god has to lie to anyone, then his plan is already off the rails.

To think that god is good while ignoring his evil liar side is not possible in a dualistic world.

Place no ones name above Yahweh for evil.

Go logos and not mythos for a better view.

Regards
DL
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2020 11:18 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

Why and how does knowledge kill us?

It says:
Quote:

16And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;

17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


So it sounds like it is saying that if he only ate from all the other trees, he would know only good; but if he eats from the tree of knowledge of good AND evil, then he will surely die.

In other words, it's saying that there are lots of good choices, but also bad choices; so if you don't avoid the bad, it's going to cause you problems, regardless of how much good you do as well.

Ever heard the expression it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bushel?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2020 07:22 am
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
If a god has to lie to anyone, then his plan is already off the rails.

To think that god is good while ignoring his evil liar side is not possible in a dualistic world.

Place no ones name above Yahweh for evil.

Go logos and not mythos for a better view.

Regards
DL

Please clarify. You mean logos as in letter of the word? i.e., 'Thou shall not lie' and therefore any lie is 'evil', QED - God is evil?

I can understand such absolutism, but never personally had the desire or need to go there. If that is where you are, I’d like to know how you got there. If not, back to first question.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2020 07:35 am
@Leadfoot,
It's a Gnostic argument, "God" is the Demiurge.

Most Gnostics don't see the Demiurge as evil, merely misguided and an essential part to the plan.

The OP claims to be Gnostic but acts more like a cult leader.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2020 11:37 am
@izzythepush,
That is what I’m trying to figure out about DL's encounter with 'God'.
I can see how it might affect anyone that way if they are determined to get close.
My impression is that it can go either way, the 'fear of God' either leaves you awestruck or terrified at that hideous strength. I still don’t know which way he went. Some people are awestruck by raw power, even if it is evil.

He does sound pretty certain of himself, and cults are usually led by such.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2020 12:17 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

My impression is that it can go either way, the 'fear of God' either leaves you awestruck or terrified at that hideous strength. I still don’t know which way he went. Some people are awestruck by raw power, even if it is evil.

The easiest way to think about the 'fear of God,' is to pick some natural occurrence that humans have no control over, such as a storm or flood, and then think about how to respond to that, e.g. if you feel fear, does it really make sense to react to fear or does it make more sense to try to figure out the purpose of such disasters/threats, and seek revelation from God in order to serve Him better knowing that He is a loving father that is ultimately on the side of His children, albeit in mysterious ways that we can't always understand.

Sometimes we just have to trust that if we lose our lives due to some cause beyond our control, that God is our shepherd and, as Jesus is quoted as saying, "not one (sparrow) will fall to the ground outside your Father's care" (Matthew 10:29)
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2020 12:45 pm
@Leadfoot,
I know, there’s far more reputable sources onGnosticism out there.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2020 10:13 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
The easiest way to think about the 'fear of God,' is to pick some natural occurrence that humans have no control over, such as a storm or flood, and then think about how to respond to that

Transferring that fear to something else misses the point for me. The only earthly equivalent that comes to mind is how I approached my first race car or airplane as a student. I had a kind of love and reverence for them but also a fear knowing that if I failed to understand what I was dealing with, it could be fatal.

The other kind of fear of God I have is knowing the extreme lengths he will go to in letting me find my own way. It’s both scary and humbling that He would have that much respect for me.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2020 07:53 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
The easiest way to think about the 'fear of God,' is to pick some natural occurrence that humans have no control over, such as a storm or flood, and then think about how to respond to that

Transferring that fear to something else misses the point for me. The only earthly equivalent that comes to mind is how I approached my first race car or airplane as a student. I had a kind of love and reverence for them but also a fear knowing that if I failed to understand what I was dealing with, it could be fatal.

The other kind of fear of God I have is knowing the extreme lengths he will go to in letting me find my own way. It’s both scary and humbling that He would have that much respect for me.

So you're basically saying that you fear consequences for your actions, which makes sense to me.

The creation works like clockwork, for better and for worse, so whatever we set in motion comes back to us, and that can be a jagged pill to swallow.

But the Bible also contains a lot of comfort regarding how God will ultimately give us comfort and deliverance from suffering, if we maintain steadfast faith.

Neither Job nor Jesus suffered eternally.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2020 08:12 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
So you're basically saying that you fear consequences for your actions, which makes sense to me.

Still not what I’m say'n.

I’m way more afraid of disappointing him than any fate my actions could possibly bring. Not the consequences of disappointing him, just the blunt fact of it.

Quote:
Neither Job nor Jesus suffered eternally


Again, not what I’m afraid of.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2020 08:29 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Transferring that fear to something else misses the point for me.


It’s all about fear, that’s how the ruling classes keep the populace in check.

It’s still going on now, I’ve just been threatened with eternal damnation for criticising TV evangelists.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2020 08:37 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
So you're basically saying that you fear consequences for your actions, which makes sense to me.

Still not what I’m say'n.

I’m way more afraid of disappointing him than any fate my actions could possibly bring. Not the consequences of disappointing him, just the blunt fact of it.

Quote:
Neither Job nor Jesus suffered eternally


Again, not what I’m afraid of.

Ok, so you just love God and don't want to disappoint Him out of love?
 

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