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Primordial Heat: how fast do supernovae cool?

 
 
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2020 03:54 pm
Our sun fuses hydrogen to produce helium and energy. It does not produce heavier elements, such as those that make up the Earth. As such, there must be some other source for the mantle and core, whose 'primordial heat' is supposed to account for a great deal of the contemporary interior heat, along with processes of radioactive decay.

If Earth's heavy matter arrived in the wake of a supernova or other astronomical event powerful enough to send the matter of a massive star moving through the galaxy, then we should be asking how fast such material cools and how it would fall into orbit around the sun instead of flying by without getting captured into orbit.

Is it a huge coincidence that the magma captured into solar orbit to form a basis for Earth was not already cold by the time it fell into orbit? Of course it is easy to just assume that things worked out the way they did because they did, but the question is whether there is some way to analyze how far from our sun the Earth-making supernova occurred and whether other material from the same event can be found around the galaxy that is similar to Earth in terms of its rate of cooling.
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oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 26 Jan, 2020 06:51 pm
livinglava wrote:
If Earth's heavy matter arrived

It didn't. The planets formed from the raw material of the solar system in the same general time period that the sun formed from the same raw material.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2020 04:47 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

livinglava wrote:
If Earth's heavy matter arrived

It didn't. The planets formed from the raw material of the solar system in the same general time period that the sun formed from the same raw material.

Well, the sun is only supposed to be fusing hydrogen into helium, so everything heavier must have originated elsewhere.

You say 'raw material of the solar system,' as if its presence required no explanation. It had to come from somewhere, and different material could have arrived at different times in different ways.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2020 05:26 pm
@livinglava,
The raw material of the solar system came from the ashes of supernovae long ago.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2020 05:33 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

The raw material of the solar system came from the ashes of supernovae long ago.

Well, assuming that's true then the question is locating the origin of the supernova, estimating how long it took for material to arrive from there to here, and considering how fast supernova 'ashes' cool as they expand into surrounding regions.

In other words, why did the material that formed the Earth arrive at the temperature it did? and why did it end up in orbit around the sun where it is?

Another way to put it is that there should be a history of Earth that precedes its entering into orbit around the sun, unless the material that coalesced to form the sun also 'blew in' with the supernova 'ashes' that formed the Earth.

Also, we should ask what the history of Earth's volume is; i.e. when the supernova exploded, how spread out (non-dense) was the material of Earth and what was the process of coalescing like as it drifted toward its current position as a condensed ball orbiting the sun?
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2020 05:38 pm
@livinglava,
The material didn't arrive. It was here already.

It likely cooled pretty fast. Space is cold.

The origins of the supernovae (probably plural) are lost to ancient history. This was a long time ago.

Some of the stellar remnants of the supernovae that created our raw material might now be part of the Milky Way's central supermassive black hole. But there is no way to know for sure.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2020 05:48 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
unless the material that coalesced to form the sun also 'blew in' with the supernova 'ashes' that formed the Earth.

You are on the right track here. Both formed from the same raw material in the same general time period.

But none of it "blew in". It was all here already.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2020 05:53 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

The material didn't arrive. It was here already.

Ok, you said it "arrived long ago," and now you say "it was already here." I am talking about what it was traveling 'long ago,' not after it was 'already here.'

Quote:
It likely cooled pretty fast. Space is cold.

I'm trying to get a little more specific in terms of how fast a supernova's material cools as it is expanding outward from the blast center.

Quote:
The origins of the supernovae (probably plural) are lost to ancient history. This was a long time ago.

So was the big bang, but people trace back the evolution of the universe in its direction (which is actually all directions, according to the theory).

Quote:
Some of the stellar remnants of the supernovae that created our raw material might now be part of the Milky Way's central supermassive black hole. But there is no way to know for sure.

I'm no expert, but I think it would make sense to look at some other supernovae and estimate at what distance material emanating from them cools and falls into orbit around other stars, such as the sun.

I assume that if we were 'fresher supernova ash,' there would be more material closer to us in our region of the galaxy. The further the supernova spreads out, the less dense it gets.

If what you're saying is right, that multiple supernovae contributed material from different directions, then the question becomes what form the 'ashes' took as they traveled and arrived. E.g. did they come as cold interstellar meteors? Or did at least some arrive as hot magma or even more sparse, hot uncondensed cloud-like material?
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2020 06:16 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
you said it "arrived long ago,"

There was no arrival. It was already here.


livinglava wrote:
I'm no expert, but I think it would make sense to look at some other supernovae and estimate at what distance material emanating from them cools and falls into orbit around other stars, such as the sun.

It is very unlikely that such a thing happens often, if it happens at all.


livinglava wrote:
I assume that if we were 'fresher supernova ash,' there would be more material closer to us in our region of the galaxy. The further the supernova spreads out, the less dense it gets.

There are nebulae and clouds of interstellar dust all over the place.


livinglava wrote:
If what you're saying is right, that multiple supernovae contributed material from different directions, then the question becomes what form the 'ashes' took as they traveled and arrived. E.g. did they come as cold interstellar meteors? Or did at least some arrive as hot magma or even more sparse, hot uncondensed cloud-like material?

The ashes didn't arrive.

And they were not likely to be hot. Space is cold

But "sparse, uncondensed cloud-like material" sounds pretty accurate.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2020 06:38 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

livinglava wrote:
you said it "arrived long ago,"

There was no arrival. It was already here.

Why did you say it "arrived long ago" then?

Furthermore, it has to arrive because it couldn't have been generated by the sun, which only turns hydrogen into helium. There had to be some other furnace making it and spewing it out somehow.

Quote:
livinglava wrote:
I'm no expert, but I think it would make sense to look at some other supernovae and estimate at what distance material emanating from them cools and falls into orbit around other stars, such as the sun.

It is very unlikely that such a thing happens often, if it happens at all.

Supernovae are a big topic in astronomy/astrophysics, so I assume a lot have been discovered.

Also, there are models that can estimate answers to this kind of question, even if direct observation of actual supernova remnants aren't available.

Quote:
livinglava wrote:
I assume that if we were 'fresher supernova ash,' there would be more material closer to us in our region of the galaxy. The further the supernova spreads out, the less dense it gets.

There are nebulae and clouds of interstellar dust all over the place.

Yes, but those are mostly hydrogen, as I understand it. Heavier elements require stars to fuse the hydrogen into helium and so forth, and then supernovae fuse them into elements heavier than iron, which doesn't happen otherwise.

Quote:
livinglava wrote:
If what you're saying is right, that multiple supernovae contributed material from different directions, then the question becomes what form the 'ashes' took as they traveled and arrived. E.g. did they come as cold interstellar meteors? Or did at least some arrive as hot magma or even more sparse, hot uncondensed cloud-like material?

The ashes didn't arrive.

And they were not likely to be hot. Space is cold

They had to arrive. Our sun hasn't made elements heavier than helium yet, according to current astrophysics modeling.

Quote:
But "sparse, uncondensed cloud-like material" sounds pretty accurate.

Yes, but it's interesting to consider that it could consist of heavy elements from a supernova and not just clouds of light elements from dying stars or however else such material would emerge.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jan, 2020 07:01 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
Why did you say it "arrived long ago" then?

I didn't. I said it was already here.


livinglava wrote:
Furthermore, it has to arrive

No it doesn't. It was already here.


livinglava wrote:
because it couldn't have been generated by the sun, which only turns hydrogen into helium. There had to be some other furnace making it and spewing it out somehow.

Yes. Supernovae from long long ago.


livinglava wrote:
Supernovae are a big topic in astronomy/astrophysics, so I assume a lot have been discovered.
Also, there are models that can estimate answers to this kind of question, even if direct observation of actual supernova remnants aren't available.

It is unlikely that there will be any discoveries of or modeling of non-existent phenomena.


livinglava wrote:
Yes, but those are mostly hydrogen, as I understand it.

Mostly, yes. But some nebulae have heavier elements too.


livinglava wrote:
Heavier elements require stars to fuse the hydrogen into helium and so forth, and then supernovae fuse them into elements heavier than iron, which doesn't happen otherwise.

Close enough. Yes.


livinglava wrote:
They had to arrive.

No they didn't. They were already here.


livinglava wrote:
Our sun hasn't made elements heavier than helium yet, according to current astrophysics modeling.

Our sun has nothing to to with it.


livinglava wrote:
oralloy wrote:
"sparse, uncondensed cloud-like material" sounds pretty accurate.

Yes, but it's interesting to consider that it could consist of heavy elements from a supernova and not just clouds of light elements from dying stars or however else such material would emerge.

No "could" or "might" about it. That's definitely what happens.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2020 06:11 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

livinglava wrote:
Why did you say it "arrived long ago" then?

I didn't. I said it was already here.


livinglava wrote:
Furthermore, it has to arrive

No it doesn't. It was already here.


livinglava wrote:
because it couldn't have been generated by the sun, which only turns hydrogen into helium. There had to be some other furnace making it and spewing it out somehow.

Yes. Supernovae from long long ago.

You are contradicting yourself. You are saying 1) it was already here; and 2) it arrived from supernovae long long ago. What I am talking about is/are the supernovae 'long long ago.'


livinglava wrote:
Supernovae are a big topic in astronomy/astrophysics, so I assume a lot have been discovered.
Also, there are models that can estimate answers to this kind of question, even if direct observation of actual supernova remnants aren't available.

It is unlikely that there will be any discoveries of or modeling of non-existent phenomena.[/quote]
What 'non-existant phenomena' do you think I am talking about? I am talking about how fast the material expanding outward from a supernova cools as it spreads.

Quote:
livinglava wrote:
Yes, but those are mostly hydrogen, as I understand it.

Mostly, yes. But some nebulae have heavier elements too.

Elements heavier than iron require supernovae to form. All elements heavier than hydrogen require some form of star to form, unless there is some other astrophysical process in which fusion occurs that I'm not aware of.

Quote:
livinglava wrote:
They had to arrive.

No they didn't. They were already here.

Nothing can be 'already here' without arriving from somewhere. Debris from a supernova doesn't slow down as it spreads out, does it? If it arrived 'long long ago' from a distant supernova, it had to get captured by the sun's gravity as it expanded away from the supernova blast center. I supposed some interactions could cause it to spin off in a way that slowed its speed relative to the sun, but at whatever speed it drifted into our solar system, it traveled until it arrived. It couldn't have arrived long ago and just sat around waiting to become a planet; or is that what you are saying it did, and if so, how?


Quote:
livinglava wrote:
oralloy wrote:
"sparse, uncondensed cloud-like material" sounds pretty accurate.

Yes, but it's interesting to consider that it could consist of heavy elements from a supernova and not just clouds of light elements from dying stars or however else such material would emerge.

No "could" or "might" about it. That's definitely what happens.

whenever you make a statement/claim about what "definitely happened," you should provide your reason/grounds for believing it with so much conviction. Simply stating adamantly that something is 'definitely' so implies you have good reason to believe it, so readers will want to know what that reason is.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2020 07:15 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
You are contradicting yourself. You are saying 1) it was already here; and 2) it arrived from supernovae long long ago.

I didn't say anything about any arrival. The planets formed from the raw material of the solar system in the same general time period that the sun formed from the same raw material.


livinglava wrote:
What I am talking about is/are the supernovae 'long long ago.'

The origins of the supernovae (probably plural) are lost to ancient history. This was a long time ago.

Some of the stellar remnants of the supernovae that created our raw material might now be part of the Milky Way's central supermassive black hole. But there is no way to know for sure.


livinglava wrote:
What 'non-existant phenomena' do you think I am talking about?

It was in reference to your statement about ejecta from supernovae entering orbit around other stars.


livinglava wrote:
I am talking about how fast the material expanding outward from a supernova cools as it spreads.

It likely cooled pretty fast. Space is cold.


livinglava wrote:
Nothing can be 'already here' without arriving from somewhere.

The planets formed from the raw material of the solar system in the same general time period that the sun formed from the same raw material.


livinglava wrote:
Debris from a supernova doesn't slow down as it spreads out, does it?

It might. Gravity tends to slow things down if nothing else.


livinglava wrote:
If it arrived 'long long ago' from a distant supernova, it had to get captured by the sun's gravity as it expanded away from the supernova blast center. I supposed some interactions could cause it to spin off in a way that slowed its speed relative to the sun, but at whatever speed it drifted into our solar system, it traveled until it arrived. It couldn't have arrived long ago and just sat around waiting to become a planet; or is that what you are saying it did, and if so, how?

It didn't arrive. Neither was there waiting. The planets formed from the raw material of the solar system in the same general time period that the sun formed from the same raw material.


livinglava wrote:
whenever you make a statement/claim about what "definitely happened," you should provide your reason/grounds for believing it with so much conviction. Simply stating adamantly that something is 'definitely' so implies you have good reason to believe it, so readers will want to know what that reason is.

Scientists have proven that supernovae produce nebulae.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2020 12:42 pm
@livinglava,
Our Sun is a second generation star (at least). We can tell this from its composition.

Stars in general can be categorized by the "metallicity" which give us an indication of what generation they are.

As far as planetary formation goes, the material which forms the planets doesn't need to be hot before it accumulates into a planet. The compression from gravity and the accumulated impact energy are contributing factors for planetary heat. Other factors are nuclear decay and frictional heat from convection.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2020 05:32 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

Our Sun is a second generation star (at least). We can tell this from its composition.

Stars in general can be categorized by the "metallicity" which give us an indication of what generation they are.

So does that mean the star that preceded the sun formed from hydrogen and fused all the way up to iron?

What about metals/elements heavier than iron? Those have to come from a supernova, right? So all the uranium, gold, silver, and everything else heavier than iron had to arrive from elsewhere, no?

Quote:
As far as planetary formation goes, the material which forms the planets doesn't need to be hot before it accumulates into a planet. The compression from gravity and the accumulated impact energy are contributing factors for planetary heat. Other factors are nuclear decay and frictional heat from convection.

So do you think primordial heat was mostly endogenous within the local (light) material that coalesced to form Earth, and that the heavier elements that 'blew in' from distant supernovae were cold by the time they arrived?
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2020 08:49 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
So does that mean the star that preceded the sun formed from hydrogen and fused all the way up to iron?

Most likely stars (plural). But otherwise yes.


livinglava wrote:
What about metals/elements heavier than iron? Those have to come from a supernova, right?

More or less. Colliding neutron stars are another source of heavy elements.


livinglava wrote:
So all the uranium, gold, silver, and everything else heavier than iron had to arrive from elsewhere, no?

No. There was no need for them to arrive, as they were already here when the solar system formed.


livinglava wrote:
So do you think primordial heat was mostly endogenous within the local (light) material that coalesced to form Earth, and that the heavier elements that 'blew in' from distant supernovae were cold by the time they arrived?

The heavy elements were already here when the solar system formed. They did not blow in from anywhere.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jan, 2020 05:59 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

livinglava wrote:
So does that mean the star that preceded the sun formed from hydrogen and fused all the way up to iron?

Most likely stars (plural). But otherwise yes.


livinglava wrote:
What about metals/elements heavier than iron? Those have to come from a supernova, right?

More or less. Colliding neutron stars are another source of heavy elements.


livinglava wrote:
So all the uranium, gold, silver, and everything else heavier than iron had to arrive from elsewhere, no?

No. There was no need for them to arrive, as they were already here when the solar system formed.


livinglava wrote:
So do you think primordial heat was mostly endogenous within the local (light) material that coalesced to form Earth, and that the heavier elements that 'blew in' from distant supernovae were cold by the time they arrived?

The heavy elements were already here when the solar system formed. They did not blow in from anywhere.

Ok, so to sum up your POV, it is that the galaxy is very old, that numerous stars have formed and died where our sun currently is and before, and that supernovae throughout the galaxy exploded and sent out heavy radioactive elements which were more-or-less homogeneously distributed throughout the galaxy before our sun ever coalesced into a star?
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jan, 2020 06:09 am
@livinglava,
Not necessarily homogeneously, but there was plenty to be found in the area where our solar system formed.
0 Replies
 
 

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