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Betelgeuse Supernova

 
 
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2020 05:43 pm
Betelgeuse has been dimming and gravity waves have been detected from the same region.

The gravity waves are supposedly inconclusive because they don't originate exactly at Betelgeuse, but I wonder if they might take a slightly different trajectory due to space being curved differently for gravity waves than for light.

In other words, I wonder if the gravity waves are an early sign that Betelgeuse has already gone supernova and the light and neutrinos just take a little longer due to differences in space curvature for different size waves.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2020 12:45 pm
@livinglava,
As far as I know, gravity waves travel at the same speed as light, so I don't think there is any way for us to know if Betelgeuse goes supernova before we actually see the light from it.

All I know for sure, is whenever I look up at Orion at night these days, I keep imagining that Betelgeuse will go poof, and I'll actually see it. But I think I'll be waiting a long long time.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2020 05:42 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

As far as I know, gravity waves travel at the same speed as light, so I don't think there is any way for us to know if Betelgeuse goes supernova before we actually see the light from it.

They do, according to Einstein, but light can also take curved paths, such as in the case of gravitational lensing. Hence my thought that the light coming from a possible Betelgeuse supernova could be taking a different path than the gravity waves. Another possibility, I think, is that the light is slowed down by moving through the expanding material of the star while the gravity waves could maybe move through that material without getting slowed down. I think the curved-path scenario is better, though, because the gravity waves don't seem to be coming directly from Betelgeuse, so if they were in fact caused by Betelgeuse going supernova, they would have to have an apparently different source due to that portion of the sky being subject to some gravitational lensing between the real star and where we see it, like when you see a fish underwater but it's not actually where you see it because the water is bending the path of the light.

The other possibility I've thought of is that the gravity waves are caused by something completely separate from Betelgeuse, which is also causing the dimming of Betelgeuse, i.e. by bending some of Betelgeuse's light in other directions besides Earthward.

Quote:
All I know for sure, is whenever I look up at Orion at night these days, I keep imagining that Betelgeuse will go poof, and I'll actually see it. But I think I'll be waiting a long long time.

I know. It would be great to see it with your bare eyes. In fact, from what I've read the explosion will be visible in the day and night sky for a long time after it happens, so it will change the regular solar/lunar lighting cycles of the Earth.

Probably you're right, though, that it won't happen for millennia to come; but then that still leaves the question of what is causing such unprecedented dimming.
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Jewels Vern
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Feb, 2020 02:06 am
"Speed of light" is a misnomer.
Two conductors separated by an insulator form a capacitor and will store an electric charge. The charge is stored in the insulator. The amount of charge depends on the material in the insulator and scientists call that (Greek letter) eta. If the insulator is a vacuum, the charge does not go to zero. A vacuum will store an electric charge. The measurement for a vacuum is called eta sub zero.
When a charge moves it generates a magnetic field in whatever material surrounds the path, called core. The amount of field depends on the material in the core and scientists call that (Greek letter) mu. If the core is a vacuum the field does not go to zero. A vacuum will store a magnetic field. The measurement for a vacuum is called mu sub zero.
Engineers use a simple formula to calculate the speed at which a signal moves through a transmission line based on the measured mu and eta. If you plug in mu sub zero and eta sub zero you get the speed of light in a vacuum, exactly.
So what we call "speed of light" is in fact the phase velocity of a signal through a medium. (We have no idea what the medium is.) If it can be demonstrated that the speed of gravity is the same as the speed of light, that would imply that gravity is an electromagnetic phenomenon, which would be quite a kick in the head.
- Electricity
- Magnetism
- Gravity
- Time
Four major industries with undefined basis.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Feb, 2020 08:55 am
@Jewels Vern,
Jewels Vern wrote:

"Speed of light" is a misnomer.
Two conductors separated by an insulator form a capacitor and will store an electric charge. The charge is stored in the insulator. The amount of charge depends on the material in the insulator and scientists call that (Greek letter) eta. If the insulator is a vacuum, the charge does not go to zero. A vacuum will store an electric charge. The measurement for a vacuum is called eta sub zero.
When a charge moves it generates a magnetic field in whatever material surrounds the path, called core. The amount of field depends on the material in the core and scientists call that (Greek letter) mu. If the core is a vacuum the field does not go to zero. A vacuum will store a magnetic field. The measurement for a vacuum is called mu sub zero.
Engineers use a simple formula to calculate the speed at which a signal moves through a transmission line based on the measured mu and eta. If you plug in mu sub zero and eta sub zero you get the speed of light in a vacuum, exactly.
So what we call "speed of light" is in fact the phase velocity of a signal through a medium. (We have no idea what the medium is.) If it can be demonstrated that the speed of gravity is the same as the speed of light, that would imply that gravity is an electromagnetic phenomenon, which would be quite a kick in the head.
- Electricity
- Magnetism
- Gravity
- Time
Four major industries with undefined basis.

Can you apply what you're saying here to addressing the question of whether gravitational waves coming from Betelgeuse could appear to have a slightly different origin and arrive sooner than light waves coming from the same supernova?

I think that gravity waves could move faster than the light because 1) the light's path could be curved by gravitational lensing and 2) turbulence could be slowing the speed of the light as it moves toward us in a way that gravity waves could go through more easily because of their larger size and thus ability to move through larger amounts of turbulent medium at the same time.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 02:43 pm
@rosborne979,
Bummer. It's starting to look like it won't explode (anytime soon) after all.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2020 05:56 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

Bummer. It's starting to look like it won't explode (anytime soon) after all.

So what caused the dimming? Gravitational lensing? Dust cloud between there and us? Did someone forget to squeegee the telescope lens?
0 Replies
 
 

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