The Fallacy of the Conformist and Non-conformist idea

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"I want to be different than everyone else",
"I don't want to be like those conformist freaks"

The non-conformist statements above, are both as equally misguided. They are stenched with a disturbing level of grandiosity and ignorance. Yet, a menacing amount of subliminal and popular messages have been emphasizing these statements. Like a phantom in disguise, it consumes the mainstream media of youth programming, and ironically a growing anti-social sentiment had spread.

When one takes the arguments apart however, it is also not difficult to show their contradiction and naivette. In desperately trying not to conform, they are already conforming to an anti-social idea. Thus, the extreme form of mainstream conformity itself, is also a form of conformity. Indeed, one would wonder whether the idea of extreme non-conformity itself has any true basis.

We are already individuals. We do not have to be unique to be of value, that is something that some has failed to realize. A conformity vs. anti-conformity argument are both a sign of insecurity and for the latter, an unhealthy sense of grandiosity. When either side is taken as a priority, then we are living in fallacy.

Whether we are different or not so different than everyone else in looks or thoughts is not of importance. It is important to re-evaluate our priorities. It is imminent to see that our priority ought to be to do what is right.

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Re: The Fallacy of the Conformist and Non-conformist idea
Ray

I think that being a non-conformist is something without real meaning.
What does the non-conformist believe? What ideas does he have?
If his only idea is to be against conformism, then he does not say what he is, but only what he isn't.
People may have non-conformist ideas, attitudes. Being a feminist in 1900 was a non-conformist attitude. But there are only non-conformist ideas, conducts.
No one can be just a "non-conformist" unless he is a very naive person.

There are people that think that, saying "no" to any idea related to some sort of authority reveals their non-conformism, but that is a mistake. In fact, this kind of non-conformist would be the absolute skepticism. Then he would be a conformist according to skeptical philosophy.

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Val, I agree with your post. Very Happy

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You are unique...just like everybody else.:wink:

I don't know, however, how many people truly believe they're perfect non-conformists; I've never met that individual.

Ray, I disagree on the point about this allegedly growing anti-social sentiment connected to nonconformism; nonconformism has always been the brand of youth; their medium of bonding; how they distinguish themselves from the enemy (i.e., adults); today's youth are no different. Indeed, nonconformism has taken some interesting twists; for example, the goth-like straight-edge movement. Here we have teens wearing the dark colored clothing, dyed/punk hair, eyeliner, lipstick, etc., yet they're fairly upbeat, espouse Christianity in most cases, and have foresworn drugs and alcohol.

However, you have cued in to the growing use of nonconformist imagery and messages in popular media. If you take a closer look, however, you'll see its presence in media targeted at adults as well as youth (Kerouac's image being used to sell khakis, a patriotic Wrangler jeans commercial rocking to CCR's "Fortunate One," "think outside the box," etc.; it's simply more overt when directed at youth).

There's an excellent collection of essays/articles dealing with this phenomenon titled Commodify Your Dissent (edited by Thomas Frank and Matt Weiland, 1997). Look closely at the messages of nonconformity on television--they're almost always coupled with some sort of consumerism--you'll be a rebel if...you listen to 50 Cent...drink Coke...shop at the GAP...use Fed Ex...watch MTV...etc.

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Straight-edge is nothing like goth . . . only maybe half or less have died hair, or eye liner. Many of them may wear band shirts (which just happen to come in black most of the time). I dont know who you have met, but most of them do not support Christianity in any way, they just think that drugs and alchohol are stupid and ruin kids' lives.

Im not straight edge, but most of my friends are.

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My description of 'straight edge' is based on the fifty or so students I've had at four different high schools in two different states (Michigan and Nevada) who described themselves as 'straight edge'.

However, this really isn't all that germane the present thread, is it?

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I saw the funniest South Park. One of the kids had lost his girlfriend and moped around pitifully. He discovered the goths, who were even more pitiful and called other people 'conformists' as a put down.... But in order for the kid to 'join' them, he had to wear black, listen to heavy metal, and write sad poetry...

I have seen the circular silliness of wanting to point out foibles that bother you, and almost in the act of pointing them out, you are guilty of the bizzaro-foible...

What did Solomon say---All is vanity....

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Quote:

You are unique...just like everybody else.

Exactly.

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Ray, I disagree on the point about this allegedly growing anti-social sentiment connected to nonconformism; nonconformism has always been the brand of youth; their medium of bonding; how they distinguish themselves from the enemy (i.e., adults);

Yes, adolescence is a chaotic time, when you aren't sure of what to believe, and you're trying to show that you're a grown person.
I do think that anti-social sentiments is caused by a perverted sense of wanting to become independent. Obviously, independence is interpreted in the wrong way in such a case.

To tell you the truth, I don't really see too many people in my community who thinks of adults as their "enemy." There might be a couple of goths etc around where I live, but many of the people whom I know are pretty respectful in class (despite constant talking in class).

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However, you have cued in to the growing use of nonconformist imagery and messages in popular media. If you take a closer look, however, you'll see its presence in media targeted at adults as well as youth (Kerouac's image being used to sell khakis, a patriotic Wrangler jeans commercial rocking to CCR's "Fortunate One," "think outside the box," etc.; it's simply more overt when directed at youth).

Right on the money.

I happen to not like gangster rap (Tupac is alright however). I find that many of their songs focuses on being a "rebel" or a "badass." To me, they kind of sound the same with the same non-sense lyrics sometimes.

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There's an excellent collection of essays/articles dealing with this phenomenon titled Commodify Your Dissent (edited by Thomas Frank and Matt Weiland, 1997). Look closely at the messages of nonconformity on television--they're almost always coupled with some sort of consumerism--you'll be a rebel if...you listen to 50 Cent...drink Coke...shop at the GAP...use Fed Ex...watch MTV...etc.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll be sure to check it out.

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Ray wrote:

To tell you the truth, I don't really see too many people in my community who thinks of adults as their "enemy." There might be a couple of goths etc around where I live, but many of the people whom I know are pretty respectful in class (despite constant talking in class).

"Opponent" might have been a better word than "enemy," and you're right--it's not all adults, just those in positions of authority over young people (parents, teachers, etc.).

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I happen to not like gangster rap (Tupac is alright however). I find that many of their songs focuses on being a "rebel" or a "badass." To me, they kind of sound the same with the same non-sense lyrics sometimes.

Of course, their brand of rebellion entails having lots of cash, fine clothing, a pimped-out ride with flashy rims, and objectifying women. Once again we have the message of rebellion via consumerism. The sad thing is that most kids seem to swallow it hook, line and sinker.

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Mills75

That is a good point. We live already in a global society that absorbs and "digests" all criticism. Non-conformism becomes just another product to consume.
Even the most radical opposition to the system becomes part of the system.
No need of inquisitions, jails, "autos-de-fé". If a book gives a devastating testimony about our society, then promote it in the media, use the marketing to sell it, invite the author to interviews, give him awards and money and, if possible, make a film in Hollywood.

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That's precisely how it works--institutionalize the revolution; homogenize it, sterilize it, place it in a pretty package and sell it to the masses. What better way to defang it?

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Unfortunately, a lot of people misinterpret Emerson's fine work "Self-Reliance" to indicate a conformity to what is not society. Rather, the non-conformist acts of pure volition, even if this results in him becoming what society happens to be dictating. Most of the people who are believed to be "non-conformists" are actually conformists insofar as they conform to what is not society, although maybe occassionally "who they are" might prompt them to hang out for hours in the mall, idling, in blank torn clothes and chains, I suppose.

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val wrote:

Mills75

That is a good point. We live already in a global society that absorbs and "digests" all criticism. Non-conformism becomes just another product to consume.
Even the most radical opposition to the system becomes part of the system.
No need of inquisitions, jails, "autos-de-fé". If a book gives a devastating testimony about our society, then promote it in the media, use the marketing to sell it, invite the author to interviews, give him awards and money and, if possible, make a film in Hollywood.

case in point: Michael Moore has the same publisher as Howerd Stern and Rush Limbaugh.

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yitwail wrote:

...Michael Moore has the same publisher as Howerd Stern and Rush Limbaugh.

While that might well be the result of the ever increasing concentration of corporate power over media (there are only something like six corporations controlling 80 or 90% of all book publishing), it is disappointing when great critical thinkers and activists fail to focus their critical lens on themselves from time to time.

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What a great paradox this "non-conformist" movement creates. They do all they can to rebel against what society would suggest is right, but in doing that they themselves are conforming to the rest of their peers who encourage ideas like being non-conformist.
I have seen the non-conformists, and if one there is one thing I have noticed, it is that they wear clothes so similar that they could trade pants or a shirt and I wouldn't know the difference. Is there anything wrong with that? Not necessarily. But the point is, they're just like the teenagers who are in a group who only wears Hollister and Abercrombie. The fact that they wear black and act repressed is supposed to make them revolutionary and 'non-conforming'?

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Ironically, both groups--the preppies and the "nonconformists"--try too hard to fit in; the preppies with the "in-crowd" and the "nonconformists" with the nonconformist crowd. Personally, I think the nerds/geeks/dweebs are the only true nonconformists.

Nerds of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your virginity!

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Funny. You may have a point.

I don't think the nerds CAN conform, so they win!

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Doesn't all this talk about non-confirmity makes people lose sight of what is important?

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Nerds of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your virginity!

What?

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People should conform to one thing, themselves. By that I mean that they should just do what they they like and things like that. The thing is, the things they like are goign to be influenced by peers, which my look like they're conforming to thier freinds!!! ahhh it's too crazy!!!!

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lol, that's why I don't like the argument of conformity-nonconformity Carbonsystem.

What we should do, is to do what's right. For neutral things though, do as you like.

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The Fallacy of the Conformist and Non-conformist idea

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