It's no dream, we already live in perfect harmony

For some reason, I thought of this:

"All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace"
Richard Brautigan 1967

I like to think (and
the sooner the better!)
of a cybernetic meadow
where mammals and computers
live together in mutually
programming harmony
like pure water
touching clear sky.
I like to think
(right now, please!)
of a cybernetic forest
filled with pines and electronics
where deer stroll peacefully
past computers
as if they were flowers
with spinning blossoms.

I like to think
(it has to be!)
of a cybernetic ecology
where we are free of our labors
and joined back to nature,
returned to our mammal
brothers and sisters,
and all watched over
by machines of loving grace.

Nice. Brings to mind the transition we're undergoing. We have always been dependant of our environment, though the machine is too great for us to fathom. As the decades have passed we have grown more and more dependant on machines of our own devising, shifting the perspective away from the great computer that mother earth is. We are cogs.

The thought Richard Brautigan likes to think is actually not that far from the truth.

Cyracuz, what planet do you live on? Are you aware of the conflicts currently going on, in which soldiers and civilians alike are being killed daily? Are you aware of the number of women and children abused daily, people mugged, houses broken into, auto accidents, epidemics, earthquakes, and all of the other ills that plague mankind?

Perhaps your world is harmonious, but this one isn't, not on any scale, unless you believe that misfortune is required to counterbalance luck, one person's pain and suffering are necessary to allow another to experience joy, and War is Peace.

Even if this life is just an illusion perpetuated by unknown entities for unknown reasons, I do not see it as a peaceful or harmonious one. It has its moments, of course, and it is possible to lose yourself in your own little world and ignore the conflicts. But they are still there for the majority of mankind.

The circle analogy makes sense in that we are spiraling upward, building on old knowledge and gaining wisdom. But I do not think conflict rounding off the rough edges is the only way. We can also fill in the low spots and become more than we were instead of less.

Re: It's no dream, we already live in perfect harmony


Leibniz said something like that. If we could understand all the universe, in time and space, events that today seem terrible, are in fact part of an harmonic totality.

I never could accept that theory that is, in my opinion, based on a confusion between harmony and adjustment. I see the world as perpetual tension between balance and rupture that creates a new balance and so on.
The difference between harmony and adjustment can be seen in the famous Voltaire joke:
Harmony: It is because we have noses that we can use glasses.
Adjustment: we made glasses according to the characteristics of our nose.

Terry, the fact is that when you are saying that this world isn't a good one, you are simply stating that your world is not a good one.

Yes, I am aware of the countless misfortunes out there. I might even be one, yet unaware.

As I see it there are two ways of going about finding your own peace in the world, wich is, when it comes down to it, what it is all about.

The first is the path most often taken, and as a result we live in a world where dogs are locked up simply for being dogs. The way is to mold the world to fit one's idealistic view of it. It is arduos, and you will end up dissappointed because you can never rectify everything you see as wrong in the world. It was never your charge.

The other path requires more courage. It is to seek to understand the world on the world's terms, not yours. It is fighting fear rather than enemies. To compare, such a person would deal with his fear of dogs rather than demand them removed from his habitat.

So when you say that this world is not harmonious it is just because you are not looking at all of it. You say we are spiraling upward, and it is an analogy I understand, but what is also true is that conflict is the engine of this spiraling. It is how we gain our wisdom, it is how we learn our moral codes.

If the A-bombs were not dropped over Japan in 45 they would have been used in the next big crisis, likely doing far greater damage, since every side would by then have accuired one, and every side would retalliate before all consequences were known. The result would be a thousand times worse than Hiroshima.

I'm not saying that bombing the city was of the good, but for better or for worse, it taught us a lesson, and it is maybe not so far fetched to think that this very lesson has kept us alive into the 21st century.

Cyracuz, I suspect that 90% of the world's population share my view.

Of course individuals can find their own inner peace and live in harmony. But that doesn't change the fact that world peace does not exist at present and the world cannot be considered to be in perfect harmony when so many of its occupants are suffering from famine, disease, conflict and despair. Their pain may not matter on a cosmological scale, but it does indicate a decided lack of balance on this planet.

I do understand the world on its terms, and I am not afraid of it. That doesn't mean that I like what is going on, just that I accept that people aren't perfect and bad things happen. It is not my job to change the world but only to live my own life as well as I can.

I don't understand how you reconcile your acceptance of conflict with your assertion that there has always been world peace and perfect harmony. If that were true, there would have been no world wars and A-bombs would never have been invented.

I don't think conflict is necessary for wisdom, morality, learning or progress, at least not for me. But then women rarely start wars and are generally better at cooperative efforts. Perhaps if we ran the world, there would indeed be peace.

Terry wrote:


An I suspect that 90% of the worlds population live miserable lives in search of fleeting pleasures. That they know happiness only as moments of varying length, islands in an ocean of uncertainty, fear and want.



You said it: Their pain. Their strife. I feel I should say that I am a great believer in karma. You reap what you sow. This follows paths that are unknown to me, but I am certain that when I experience things that I know as bad, it is merely a side-effect of misunderstanding something, or an effect to wich the cause is unknown to me.

As you say, individuals can find their own inner peace and live in harmony. I'd like to push it one further and say that this is the only mission a man can ever have hopes of fulfilling, and even those hopes are not high. In life we are powerless to change anything but our perspectives.

Some people, due to ignorance, fail to realize that they invent enemies as manifestations of their fear. So they take it out on someone. From fear they corrupt themselves, and while they inflict great suffering they also ignite the will to survive in their victims, forcing them to become better or perish. This has been the way of the world in all ages, and even humans do not posess neither the wisdom or the power to trancend this. We are still in the grasp of chaotic evolution. These are some of the things that have made me reach the conclusion that all is harmony.

And yes, conflict is necessary for wisdom, morality, learning and progress. For you as well as everything else. But let me hasten to add that a conflict is not always a bloody deathmach. A conflict can be your need to buy food versus your lack of money to do so. This conflict urges you to excel or starve.

We have a saying here in Norway: Need teaches the naked woman to weave.

As for deciding who runs the world, men or women, I cannot begin to figure it out. I know that in actuality none of them run it. We are merely primates. We do not control the airflow or the rain. We are at the mercy of the sun and the moon, and we are in gravity's unrelenting grasp. Where is control?

In life we are powerless to change anything but our perspectives.

Some excellent points.

But its worth noting that its not only the humans that appear to be "flawed," if that is the word for it.

The animal world, and the animals in it, seem just as flawed. Have you ever watched lions tear apart a peaceful zebra then fight one another for the meat?

I was camping, and noticed animals fighting each other for food. A fish lay dying in the river, and struggling with it.

One of the salamanders on the bank would probably get cancer one day. A ivy plant was strangling a tree on the other side of the bank.

Well one could say these things were all part of the circle, I suppose.

Animals suffering, outside of the human realm. Harmonious suffering and death, even with no flawed humans around?

Something about life and existence and suffering. Its everywhere. Its beautiful in a way, I suppose. Perhaps if you see it all in the right way, the suffering and conflict in the animal kingdom has a harmony of its own.

EM, the flaw I am talking about is the illution of "completeness". The fish in itself, the zebra, the lions, they are all illutions of completeness. They are not separate beings, they are interdependent on eachoter, and therefore inseparable. Without the zebras the lions will starve, and without the lions taxing the herd, the zebras may over populate their habitat and strain all food supplies.



Yes, that is how I see it. Everything is part of the circle. Thus everything that is not the entire circle is imperfect. That is the flaw, but it is something of our minds. We see things as separate from eachother, when they are in reality not. All creatures that we have names for are flawed, meaning that they do not really deserve the separate identities we have given them.

If we are still developing, then the world is not in harmony. Val makes an excellent point about the difference between harmony and adjustment. I seem to be getting the notion that what you're talking about is really adjustment rather than harmony.



The last paragraph is really troubling. Peace = no violent conflict. This is not the case.

I understand that many fails to realize the common form that unites us, but saying that everything is in harmony while stating that we don't realize the unity is what I think aa contradiction. But I like what you said about unity though.

The undesirable conflicts we are all part of, regardless of our opinion are part and parcel of might being right.

The governments we democratically elect have a job to do. Basically speaking it is keeping us content. Without that feeling we would be anarchists.

We are indeed very young, a great deal of our present problems are due to lack of knowledge, brought on by our demands for making sure, "I'm all right Jack"

There are millions on the planet who have no idea as to the feelings of life as we know it.

The problem is indeed in the separations we maintain and endorse.

Panglossian bull$hit.

Kuvask, bull$hit is surely only an issue of science in Texas ? They use it in order to impress American folk in the other states, who they view as inferior beings anyhow. :wink:

Re: It's no dream, we already live in perfect harmony


Your hypothesis appears to be stating:

1. Humans cannot see the whole world and understand the perfect harmony that it is. Humans are not capable of it.
2. Cyracuz can see the whole world and understand the perfect harmony that it is.

A. Is Cyracuz human?
B. If humans, by definition, cannot see this "harmony of the universe" how can anyone ask them to see it?

C. If we cannot see that we cannot see the harmony, how were you able to see this? Where did this vision of yours come from? Thus, after all, are humans capable of seeing the harmony? Or did you get this message from some other life form?

Because if you are saying you saw it, then humans are quite capable of seeing it. Right?

Good post EM. Yes humans are capable of seing it. The trouble is that we rarely take the time to look at the whole picture before deciding wether or not we understand.

You ask if I got this message from another form of life, and I understand your sarcasm. But even so, I did get the message from another lifeform. Many, in fact.

What I mean when I say that humans cannot see this harmony is that we do not posess any senses that can rely the information directly. We have to put our different impressions together into a coherent continuance. The broader the perspective the broader the understanding. Luckily our mind does this all by itself, but only to a certain extent.