The dead-ended question

Forums: Philosophy
Email this Topic • Print this Page

What was the beginning?

Was the universe always there (even though it was in different forms), or did it come from nothing?

I don't see how the latter would be right, because it's conceptually difficult to fathom, but people have also argued that eternity is also a conceptual problem.

I think that the universe is always there, or that a beginning is merely a point where time starts?

Topic Stats
Top Replies
Link to this Topic

Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,266 • Replies: 18

No top replies

the conceptual problem with eternity is, how does it ever get to be now, if the present is preceded by an infinite amount of time. the only solution i can think of is that everything is eternal, but that's hard to reconcile with the reality of change. the only honest alternative, IMO, is that the universe arises from nothing. merely asserting that the universe was created solves nothing, because it begs the question of how the creator came into existence, and if a creator is said to be eternal, then the question becomes, how did it ever get to the moment of creation, if creation was preceded by an infinite amount of time.

0 Replies

Perhaps the concept of 'nothing' is a flawed one. After all, we have never observed nothing, we do not know that 'nothing' can exist as a state. It is a human construct.

I like to think of atom: they have no charge, or rather, the charge is nothing. But the charge isn't really nothing, it's just an exact balance between positive and negative. Perfect balance equals nothing.

So perhaps 'stuff' is just the result of an imbalance between x and -x. Since there are infinitely more ways to have imbalance than balance, we should confidently expect there to be stuff, which, of course, there is.

0 Replies

Quote:

Perhaps the concept of 'nothing' is a flawed one. After all, we have never observed nothing, we do not know that 'nothing' can exist as a state. It is a human construct.

And yet "nothing" is so often a part of our daily lives. What is a donut without the nothing in the middle of it? Just another cookie. It is the hole, or the "nothingness", that gives it the name donut. So "nothing" is an entirely real, although entirely relative, concept. It has no meaning without "something".

The way I like to think about it is that there are no beginnings, there are no ends, there is only change. From a human perspective these changes may seem like endings and beginnings. The transition from lake to desert is seen as the end of the lake and the beginning of the desert. But the lake and the desert only have their singular identities in our minds. It is our illution. After all, the sand of the desert was there all along, and the water is not gone, it just changed location.

0 Replies

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps the concept of 'nothing' is a flawed one. After all, we have never observed nothing, we do not know that 'nothing' can exist as a state. It is a human construct.

And yet "nothing" is so often a part of our daily lives. What is a donut without the nothing in the middle of it? Just another cookie. It is the hole, or the "nothingness", that gives it the name donut. So "nothing" is an entirely real, although entirely relative, concept. It has no meaning without "something".

By 'nothing' I meant absolutely nothing, not the absense of one particular type of something. There is not nothing in the hole of a doughnut, there just isn't dough.

Your ideas about change rather than ending make sense to me, I like them.

0 Replies

There is apparently a lot to say about such a dead-ended question. Wink

(BM for later.)

0 Replies

yitwail wrote:

the conceptual problem with eternity is, how does it ever get to be now, if the present is preceded by an infinite amount of time. the only solution i can think of is that everything is eternal, but that's hard to reconcile with the reality of change. the only honest alternative, IMO, is that the universe arises from nothing. merely asserting that the universe was created solves nothing, because it begs the question of how the creator came into existence, and if a creator is said to be eternal, then the question becomes, how did it ever get to the moment of creation, if creation was preceded by an infinite amount of time.

Does eternity really seem hard to reconcile with our reality. The past does not exist - the future does not exist - the present seems a never-ending present that is durationless.

It seems like we live in a universe that is eternal and time is merely measured by the fact that we have memory and expectations.

TF

0 Replies

Quote:

the conceptual problem with eternity is, how does it ever get to be now, if the present is preceded by an infinite amount of time.

That's precicely backwards. Further, the present is not preceeded by an infinite amount of time. The present IS infinite time. Note that "an infinite amount of" was excluded from that sentence. That is because infinity in no way implies that it amounts to anything. It only implies that there is not beginning or end to it.

For the rest, thinkfactory's take on time is right on if you ask me.

Quote:

It seems like we live in a universe that is eternal and time is merely measured by the fact that we have memory and expectations.

Memories and expectations are what give rise to the concept of linear time, wich is an illution. I wrote a poem about it long ago:

Between haunting past
And taunting future
Constantly revolving
Between ghosts we fear
And hopes we nurture
The present is dissolving

0 Replies

Cyracuz, i don't disagree with your observations, but as you said,

Quote:

It only implies that there is not beginning or end to it.

this makes questions like the one starting this thread--What was the beginning?--meaningless.

i also find a bit problematic the observation that time is created by memory and expectation. in cartesian style epistemology, there is no greater certainty than the reality of one's consciousness, yet consciousness has a beginning & hence finite duration. to reconcile this with eternity seems to require a leap of faith.

0 Replies

Concepts such as eternity or infinite can not be rationalized. We live with our limits. We don´t understand a no-end universe or universes.

We have always to question what it was the beginnig because we need limits for understanding ourselves.

Our known universe had a beginning and with that it´s enough for ontologic concepts; after all we are searching why don´t understand what eternity is.

0 Replies

Well, we think of everything as having a beginning at times because our life has a beginning, as Priamus said. I don't find eternity irrational, just hard to imagine.

BTW, is something that is timeless bound to be eternal?

Quote:

I like to think of atom: they have no charge, or rather, the charge is nothing. But the charge isn't really nothing, it's just an exact balance between positive and negative. Perfect balance equals nothing.

I think we really have to define nothing here then.

Nothing, metaphysically defined as the absence of anything.

Perfect balance of something does not always equal to nothing, and in fact, it doesn't according to the above definition because there is obviously something producing the balance. In the case of atomic charges, the net result of a balanced + and - charges does equal to a neutral net charge, but the charges within the atom does exist. We can not therefore say that the atom has no charge in it, but that the net charge of the atom is none. Also, charge is only a word that we apply to the behaviours of ions.

Anyways, if we define nothing as the absence of anything then a perfect balance of something would not be nothing at all even if the effect seems to be of a third property.

Confused

0 Replies

Ray, I think you are agreeing with my point, but I'm not sure.

I am saying that 'the absense of anything' might be impossible. We don't, I think, have any evidence to suggest it is possible, since, as I tried to show with the atomic charges example, all things we call nothing are not actually nothing (by the 'absense of anything' defination).

Were it the case that 'nothing' were impossible, then we'd have no need to find reasons for there being 'something' - it simply could not be otherwise.

0 Replies

yes, I think we are in agreement djbt. Very Happy

0 Replies

yitwail wrote:

Quote:

i also find a bit problematic the observation that time is created by memory and expectation

Memory and expectation give rise to the illution of linear time. Time is created by the world it measures, and is nothing without it.

No ray, you are not in agreement. You are just confused, and now I am too Smile

But seriously, maybe perspective is a key word. There are many words that imply things that are nothing. "Never", for instance. If something is never going to happen, then when is it that is is happening? It's not, but we have a word for it. Never. Now how does that make sense?

And now I really am confused...

0 Replies

Cyracuz wrote:

And now I really am confused...

shoot, i thought i was going to get the answers to all of life's unanswered questions from you. Confused

0 Replies

There are no unanswered questions. If so it's just because we're not done asking...

0 Replies

alright, let's start with Sigmund Freud's famous question: what do women want? and let's qualify the phrase "unanswered questions" to mean questions yet to be answered satisfactorily. ;-)

0 Replies

All right. Answeres yet to be answered.

What do women want?

One thing though. You say Sigmund Freuds famous question, but I'm betting that even Adam racked his brain for the answer to that question.

But there is a simple answer: Anything they can lay claims to. Women, perhaps more than men, hate to burn bridges and close doors.
A simple answer, but not neccesarily true. I don't know.

0 Replies

There is a book i think you should read if you are curious. it is called "Zero" and offers many ideas on nothing, eternity, and life in general. It doesn't oush you one way or the othe, however, and lets you form your own opimnion. Read it!

0 Replies

The dead-ended question

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know