3
   

What's the difference between the United Kingdom and Great Britain?

 
 
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 03:36 am
Hi. Pardon my ignorance. I should know this, but I don't.

Which term refers to England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and the Isle of Man collectively?

I know Northern Ireland is part of the U.K.

I have a question I want to ask concerning England, Ireland, Wales and the Isle of Man, collectively.

Please help- thank you.
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 04:16 am
@JGoldman10,
The Isle of Man is a crown dependency, like the Channel Islands. It's not part of the UK or Great Britain.

Great Britain is England Scotland and Wales, the UK is the same plus Northern Ireland.

Southern Island is an independent country.

The closest term to describe it Britain, Ireland and the Isle of Man would be British Isles although some Irish people may disagree.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 04:17 am
@JGoldman10,
JGoldman10 wrote:

I have a question I want to ask concerning England, Ireland, Wales and the Isle of Man, collectively.


Did you forget to include Scotland? If not there is none.
JGoldman10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 05:01 am
@izzythepush,
I forgot Scotland.

I meant to post:

"I have a question I want to ask concerning England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and the Isle of Man, collectively."

What do you mean by "there is none"?

izzythepush wrote:


The closest term to describe it Britain, Ireland and the Isle of Man would be British Isles although some Irish people may disagree.


What about Wales? Is that part of the British Isles?

What's "Britain"? Do you mean England?
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 05:16 am
@JGoldman10,
There is no collective term for England, Wales, Ireland and the Isle of Man.

If you include Scotland you can call them the British Isles.

I thought I'd made myself clear.

England + Wales + Scotland = Great Britain.

Great Britain + Northern Ireland =UK

UK + Ireland + Isle of Man and others like Hebrides and Shetlands = British Isles.

Wales is therefore part of Great Britain, the UK and the British Isles.

I do not mean England when I say Britain I mean Britain which is England Scotland and Wales.

We normally drop the Great in Great Britain and just refer to Britain.

The reason Britain is known as Great Britain is to make it stand apart from Brittany which is part of France, or (lesser Britain.)

Britain is a Roman term, the Saxons referred to the Celts as Britons, and England did not exist as a political entity in its own right until the reign of Alfred the Great. He was originally king of Wessex and by defeating the Danes he set about unifying the country.
JGoldman10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 05:32 am
@izzythepush,
Thank you for clarifying and elaborating. Why is Ireland left out of Britain?
lmur
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 05:36 am
@JGoldman10,
..count...to...ten...
0 Replies
 
JGoldman10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 05:43 am
@izzythepush,
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_British_Isles :

"British is an adjective pertaining to the United Kingdom; for example, a citizen of the UK is called a British citizen—but for citizenship purposes 'British' includes the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man."

I should use the terms "British" or "Brits" when referring to people from the British Isles.

JGoldman10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 05:50 am
@izzythepush,
The Republic of Ireland is considered part of the British Isles- right?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 06:49 am
@JGoldman10,
Well yes, but some Irish people would dispute that. It all depends on whether you view British Isles as a political or geographical statement.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 06:51 am
@JGoldman10,
I don't like the term Brits. Sounds like shits.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 07:45 am
@JGoldman10,
JGoldman10 wrote:

Why is Ireland left out of Britain?


Are you really expecting me, an Englishman, to answer that?

Read this, it will tell you why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland_(1801%E2%80%931923)
JGoldman10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 02:35 pm
@izzythepush,
You seem to know more about history than I do. I didn't see any harm in asking.

I'm not a history expert. History was not one of my fortes or strong suits when I was in school.

Are there any Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Manx people who use this site?
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 03:40 pm
@JGoldman10,
Why don't you ask Imur?

I doubt you're going to find anyone from the Isle of Man. It's not got a large population.

Why are you asking anyway, do you think I'm deliberately lying about what constitutes the UK, Britain, and the British Isles just to denigrate Ireland, Wales, Scotland and the Isle of ******* Man?

Jewels Vern
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 03:42 pm
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.history.british/nQozzx-8vBo

Don Aitken
6/29/00
UK, England, etc. - Definitions
Inspired by various contributions to this and other NGs, this is an
attempt to sort out some recurring problems of definition. Maybe it
might form a basis for part of a FAQ for this group. All corrections,
additions, etc. gratefully received - see "Outstanding Question" for
one I haven't been able to resolve.
Q. What is the UK? Is it the same as Britain, Great Britain or
England?

DISCLAIMER: This description is confined to legal and other factual
issues which seem to be capable of "correct" answers. It does not deal
with psychological questions about "Englishness", "Britishness" etc.,
nor with issues of race. The question of whether there is an English
or a British race (or both) and if so how this should be defined is
IMO just not a sensible question.

The main source for most of the following is De Smith's
"Constitutional and Administrative Law"

Preliminary: States and Nations

The British Isles are divided between two countries which are
independent states in international law, namely 1) the United Kingdom
of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and 2) the Republic of Ireland.
The United Kingdom is a unitary not a federal state. Unlike the states
of the USA or Germany the subordinate jurisdictions of the UK
(Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) do not have legislatures with
their own areas of _exclusive_ jurisdiction. The primary principle
of our constitutional law is that the UK Parliament can do anything.

England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland have all been regarded for
centuries as nations, and are still correctly referred to as such.
This has nothing to do with legal status.

Concentric Circles

If, like me, you live in England, you are part of a number of
different entities of increasing size, as follows -

1. England
2. England and Wales
3. Great Britain
4. The United Kingdom
5. The United Kingdom and Islands
6. The British Isles
7. The Common Travel Area
8. The European Territories of the United Kingdom
9. The European Union
10. The United Kingdom and Colonies
11. The Commonwealth

1. England

There is surprisingly little to say about England, except that it
contains about 80% of the population of the UK and hence is
overwhelmingly dominant in relation to all UK-wide political issues.
It is an important administrative unit, and many UK government
departments (such as the Ministry of Agriculture and the Department of
Health) have jurisdiction only in England.

2. England and Wales

This unit, which doesn't even have its own name, is extremely
important, because it defines the jurisdiction of the English courts,
usually just called "the jurisdiction" in legal terminology. It is the
area of application of English law (which strictly should be called
the law of England and Wales, but rarely is). There is no such thing
as British or United Kingdom law, because there are no British or
United Kingdom courts. Many statutes apply to the whole of the UK, but
courts in Scotland or Northern Ireland may (and frequently do)
interpret them differently from the English courts. This is why the
Lockerbie trial is taking place in a Scottish court. Many
administrative bodies have jurisdiction over England and Wales.

3. Great Britain

This is a both a geographical term referring to the island on which
the greater parts of England, Wales and Scotland are situated, and a
legal one referring to those three territories considered together.
The island of Rockall, several hundred miles out in the Atlantic, is
legally part of Scotland, although actually closer to Ireland. Some,
though not many, administrative bodies have jurisdiction over Great
Britain.

4. The United Kingdom

Great Britain and Northern Ireland together make up the United
Kingdom, hence the full name. I suspect that the UK is probably the
only country in the world whose average inhabitant has no idea what
its legal name actually is. This defines the area represented in the
UK Parliament and for which that Parliament normally makes laws. It is
also a citizenship unit (although only since 1981). It does _not_
define the area for which the UK government is responsible in
international law - see below.

5. The United Kingdom and Islands

This includes a further three jurisdictions which have never been part
of England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland and are not part of the UK but
over which the Queen is sovereign and for which the UK government is
internationally responsible. They are the Isle of Man, in the Irish
Sea between England, Scotland and Ireland, and the Bailiwicks of
Guernsey and Jersey, which are the two parts of the Channel Islands,
off the coast of France, and were part of the Duchy of Normandy before
William I conquered England. They have their own citizenship,
representative institutions and laws (offshore banking and stamps
looming large as in many small territories).

6. The British Isles

Another geographical term referring to the whole group of islands
adjoining Great Britain, including Ireland. Politically it includes
the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland, and the Isle of Man, but
not the Channel Islands. Irish people may detect political
implications in this term, and it tends to be avoided, although there
is no obvious alternative. The term used in connection with the
Northern Irish peace process is just "the Isles", which could be
anywhere. The term "British Islands" was once used but seems to be
obsolete. One obvious alternative "Great Britain and Ireland" is also
avoided because it used to be part of the title of the British
monarch.

7. The Common Travel Area

This is the area from which people can enter UK ports without being
subject to routine immigration control. Same as the previous, but
includes the Channel Islands. Immigration control has never been
applied to Republic of Ireland citizens. Irish citizens have always
been entitled to vote if resident in the UK and in general are not
treated as aliens, although the Republic only recently, as part of the
peace process, extended the same treatment to UK citizens.

8. The European Territories of the United Kingdom

This means the United Kingdom and Islands, plus Gibraltar, which is a
British Colony with its own citizenship. Citizens of all parts of this
area are UK Nationals in European Union law.

*Outstanding Question

Does this also apply to residents of the Sovereign Base Areas of
Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus? _Are_ there any residents of those
areas apart from UK service personnel?

9. The European Union

The UK and Republic of Ireland are among the 15 members of the EU,
which is an international organisation, not a state, although it has
its own law, which is directly applicable in all member states through
their own courts. EU citizens have the right to settle in any member
state and in the UK can vote in local but not national elections.

10. The United Kingdom and Colonies

This is the total area for which the UK government has international
responsibility. The remaining colonies (none of which has a population
of more than 10,000) are mainly in the Caribbean and Pacific.

11. The Commonwealth

An international organisation most, though not all, of whose members
were once British colonies. A minority of Commonwealth countries (such
as Canada) have Queen Elizabeth II as their Head of State, although
most are republics. Commonwealth citizens are not aliens in the UK,
and can vote, although they are now subject to the same immigration
controls as aliens. The Republic of Ireland is not a member of the
Commonwealth.

NOTE: "British" and "Britain"

Like the USA, the UK suffers from having no convenient adjective to
describe the country or its people. The best thing that can be said
for "British" is that it is not quite as misleading as "American", but
it is nevertheless the established term for "relating to the UK". So
"British citizen" is correct. This causes endless confusion and a fair
amount of ill-will when applied to the people of Northern Ireland.
They are British citizens, and so "British" in that sense (although
they can also be citizens of the Republic of Ireland if they wish, as
many do). They are not from Great Britain, so they are not "British"
in that sense (i.e. as distinct from Irish).

The term "British subject" is obsolete. It used to mean anyone who
owed allegiance to the British sovereign, and therefore included
citizens of independent commonwealth countries as well as the UK. The
modern equivalent is "commonwealth citizen". There was no separate UK
citizenship until 1948 when the term "citizen of the United Kingdom
and Colonies" was used. Since 1981 it has been "British citizen" (the
first use of the term "British" in this context). "UK national" is a
technical term of EU law with a slightly different meaning (see 8.
above).

So what about "Britain"? This is not a term with any legal meaning,
but if you ask the English person in the street what country they live
in surveys show that more will answer "Britain" than anything else. So
it should probably be taken as a back-formation from "British" hence
meaning "United Kingdom".

NOTE: SPORT

Most people probably encounter foreign countries through their sports
teams more often than in any other way. We create even greater
confusion here, since practice varies between different sports. In
most older sports (e.g. rugby) there are teams representing the
historic nations of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. In others
(e.g. soccer) there are separate teams for Northern Ireland and the
Republic of Ireland. There may also be teams representing the whole of
the British Isles (rugby again). It is only in the Olympic Games,
where participation is strictly on the basis of nationality, and in
sports focussed on the Olympics, such as track and field athletics,
that a UK or "British" team is likely to feature. As a final
curiosity, our leading cricket team, although always called "England",
actually represents England and Wales. Scotland and Ireland have their
own teams.

Don Aitken
0 Replies
 
JGoldman10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 03:48 pm
@izzythepush,
I didn't say that. Again I am not an expert on history. Nor am I an expert on geopolitics.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 03:54 pm
@JGoldman10,
Again you use the word expert to describe what most people would consider common knowledge. Especially in America when people of Irish descent march every St Patricks Day and sing songs of The Easter Uprising.

The Irish rose us against British colonial rule, that's what happened.
JGoldman10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 07:48 pm
@izzythepush,
I know- both the Irish and the Scottish fought to claim their independence from the English. I saw Braveheart.

What's the Easter Uprising?
JGoldman10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 08:54 pm
@JGoldman10,
JGoldman10 wrote:

I know- both the Irish and the Scottish fought to claim their independence from the English. I saw Braveheart. I know who William Wallace was.



FIXED.
JGoldman10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Sep, 2019 08:57 pm
@izzythepush,
Is "British Islander" a term people use to refer to people from the British Isles?
 

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