9
   

Politically liberal science is bad science.

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 09:51 am
@hightor,
The thing is simply not ready for production yet. As the very institute who invented it (IRRI, see my post upthread) says, more work is needed to bring Golden Rice to a stage where it becomes a viable, economically competitive cultivar, or better, a set of competitive cultivars.

When that happens, we can have a discussion about who likes it and who doesn't. It is now a premature conversation, like if we'd talk of who likes the latest concept car that maybe will never hit the market...
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 09:58 am
@Olivier5,
Sure Olivier,

This is a thread about political ideology versus science. It isn't just Golden Rice. We talked about the claim that there will be "no topsoil in 60 years"... which some people defended. These are stories that people will believe without thinking critically because they match the ideological narrative.

Facts are independent. One fact that is part of a political narrative may be true, while another claim in the same narrative may be false. Each claim is true or false on its own merit.

Political Liberals (as well as conservatives) reject those scientific facts that don't fit into their ideological narrative. And, they invent, twist or exaggerate facts that do. This isn't a thread about Golden Rice. I focus on liberals, because liberals claim to be "fact-based". The same is true about "political conservatives" but they are less likely to claim to be science based.

This thread is about scientific claims that are rejected by people because they don't fit a political narrative, and about claims that are made to fit a political narrative even though they aren't scientifically valid.

Good science is good science regardless of what our political ideology might be. Scientific literacy involves accepting the times the scientific facts don't fit with our ideology.

Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 10:03 am
@maxdancona,
I agree with all that, and in fact I have shown in this thread that you are an excellent example for an ideologically blindsided science negationist. You cannot understand nor even process the well-established scientific finding that Golden Rice is not yet a competitive cultivar in farmers fields, and the reason why you cannot process this idea is simply that it contradicts your belief in science as some kind of producer of magic silver bullets solving all our problems.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 10:12 am
@Olivier5,
The personal attack doesn't help your argument. This is not a thread about Golden Rice, nor did I ever make any claim that Golden Rice is a "competitive cultivar" or that is a "magic silver bullet solving all our problems". I don't believe I have even said that I think Golden Rice is a good idea.

This is a thread about political ideology versus science. Some of the claims made by political liberals on this thread (and elsewhere) are refuted by scientific fact (as determined by reputable independent scientific organization and well-designed peer reviewed studies).

Each claim should be evaluated independently. I have never expressed an opinion on whether it is a "competitive cultivar". I am only repeating what the scientific institutions and the scientists and research behind them say.

If someone makes a factual claim, be it "Golden rice presents severe health risks" or "abortion causes breast cancer" or "handguns lower the risk of violent crime" or "vaccines cause autism".... it is best to evaluate each claim independently based on the science.

hightor
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 10:13 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Political Liberals (as well as conservatives) reject those scientific facts that don't fit into their ideological narrative.

Yeah, we get that. My criticism is that anytime someone expresses reservations about GMO crops (Golden Rice is merely being used as an example here, no one is claiming it is the subject of the thread) positivists like Max are quick to denounce them as "anti-science" when their objections may have nothing to do with science or any "ideological narrative".
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 10:18 am
@hightor,
This is a untrue. Can you give me an example?

I have rejected specific claims that are scientifically invalid (according to reputable scientific organizations and the scientists and research behind them). And, I have pointed out that many claims that are being presented as scientific "facts" are not supported by science.

I have done nothing more.

I have had very similar conversations with political conservatives over the science of global climate change and (a while ago) evolution. And I have had similar conversations with 9/11 truthers and anti-vaxxers.

Good science is good science regardless of your political ideology.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 10:44 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The personal attack doesn't help your argument.

What doesn't help my argument is your incapacity to listen and focus.

The Golden Rice issue is only an illustration, an example which you brought up. And the way you brought it up was devoid of facts and full of ideology, so I think you are a great example of how ideologically minded folks reject science.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 12:37 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Can you give me an example?

Okay. Here's a thread where I mentioned the need to have "healthy soil":

Max wrote:

Quote:
What does that even mean "healthier for the soil"?

As a consumer, I want broccoli that is tasty, gives me nourishment at a reasonable price. As a humanist, I want the land being used to be productive over the long term (meaning that is produces a lot of food per unit acre) so that we can provide the food that people need at a low cost with minimal land use.

The conventionally produced broccoli I enjoy is just as nourishing as organic broccoli at a significantly lower price. And the conventionally produced brocolli means more food being produced (over the long term) per unit acre.

I don't see where "healthy soil" comes in to the equation.


hightor wrote:

Quote:
A "healthy" soil contains a host of micro-organisms and fungi which help plants absorb nutrients efficiently. It's not that controversial.


Max wrote:

Quote:
Food produced in regular, cultivated soil has the same nutrients in this so-called "healthy soil". And the regular soil is produces more food per acre.

If the food is the same, and can be produced more efficiently over a long period of time, then why does the amount of micro-organisms and fungi in the soil matter? I am interested in the food, not the dirt.

This sounds like pseudo-science to me.


Your immediate response was to denounce me for spouting "pseudo-science", apparently because you were totally unaware of research on the importance of mycorrhizae.

Quote:
Responses of Plants to Mycorrhizal Inoculations

The greatest plant responses have been obtained in fumigated/desinfested soils, where inoculation of plants such as citrus, coffee, and cassava become indispensable to good plant development. For avocado and citrus, seedling growth of non-mycorrhizal plants requires extremely high levels of readily-soluble P fertilizers. In non-mycorrhizal plants, the critical deficiency level of available soil P is 190 mg, compared with only 15 mg in mycorrhizal plants.

Under controlled conditions, with fumigated substrates, the beneficial effects of mycorrhizal inoculation upon plant growth can vary from zero to 2,600% in citrus and 1,000% in cassava, to cite a few examples. In field conditions and non-fumigated soil, these responses are of lesser magnitude but can reach 300%. The magnitude of response is unpredictable since it depends on factors that are inherent to the host plant, to the environment, and the fungus itself.

Beneficial Effects of Arbuscular Mycorrhiza

Beneficial effects of AM result from one or several of these mechanisms:

a) Increased overall absorption capacity of roots due to morphological and physiological changes in the plant. There is increased absorption surface area, greater soil area explored (since the fungus acts as an extension of the root) ( Figure 3 ), greater longevity of absorbing roots, better utilization of low-availability nutrients, and better retention/storage of soluble nutrients, thus reducing reaction with soil colloids or leaching losses.

b) Increased mobilization and transfer of nutrients (P, N, S, micronutrients Cu, Zn) from the soil to the plant. Mycorrhizal fungi have been estimated to "substitute" up to 500 lb/a of P for citrus and 170 lb/a for soybeans in tropical areas.

c) Better development of P solubilizing bacteria in the myco-rhizosphere;

d) Increased establishment, nodulation and atmospheric nitrogen fixation capacity in legumes;

e) Modification of plant-pathogen relations: mycorrhizae influence the colonization of roots by other microorganisms, reduce the susceptibility (or increase the tolerance) of roots to soil-borne pathogens such as nematodes or phytopathogenic fungi such as Fusarium oxysporum, Fusarium solani, Rhizoctonia solani and Macrophomina phaseolina. Usually, plants of soybeans, cotton, tomato, oats, and cucumbers are less susceptible to nematode invasion when they are mycorrhizal. In studies with fungi such as Pythium, Phytophthora, Fusarium and Verticillium, in most cases (53%) the mycorrhizal interaction is beneficial for onions, cucumbers, and tomatoes.

f) Secretion of antibiotics and support of a community that competes or antagonizes pathogenic microorganisms, thus aiding in disease suppression;

g) Increased production of plant growth hormones such as cytokinins and gibberelins;

h) Modification of soil-plant-water relations, promoting better adaptation of plant to adverse environment conditions (drought, metals). At elevated heavy metal concentrations in soils, mycorrhizal fungi have been shown to detoxify the environment for plant growth.

source

And this:

Vital soil fungi damaged by GMO Bt cotton

Quote:
A new study finds that transgenic cotton genetically modified to express a Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) insect toxin inhibits the development of the beneficial soil organism Rhizophagus irregularis, a common arbuscular mycorrhizal (AM) fungus.

The study, which examined three separate genetically modified (GM) cotton lines and three non-GM lines, also found that the GM varieties disrupt the ability of the fungus to form a symbiotic association with the GM crop.

The fungus, when grown with GM cotton, displays fewer reproductive spores, fewer associations with GM cotton roots and increased fungal degeneration.

While the specific mechanism requires further study, the statistical analysis carried out in the study demonstrates that the "Bt-trait significantly contributes to the inhibition of pre-symbiotic development and AM fungal colonization, which might be attributed to either Bt toxin toxicity or interference of signal perception between AM fungi and the hosts."

Analysing three commercialised Bt cotton crops grown in China, the investigators found a reduction of fungal colonisation of roots by 44.4%, 25.0% and 51.3% for each line when compared with their isogenic parental controls.

Branching of the AM fungi was also significantly reduced, with shortened hyphae and reduced arbuscule frequency - tuft-like structures that help colonise roots on the Bt lines, which were reduced by up to 68.2% for one of the lines. This was consistent with a significant reduction in shoot biomass (Bt lines having a biomass of 0.34, 0.33 and 0.30 grams for each line) compared to controls (0.27, 0.27 and 0.25 g).

Crucially, the GM cotton plants appeared to suffer from their reduced ability to associate with the mycorrhizal fungus: they showed reduced shoot growth when compared with non-GM parental lines.

This highlights the importance of maintaining a living, healthy soil - which our industrial agricultural practices are destroying.

Unanticipated and wide reaching effects on the health of our soils

It is increasingly apparent that Bt crops are a failing technology, unable to withstand the pests they are designed to ward off. Burkina Faso, the first African nation to cultivate Bt cotton has now pulled it from the market due to the low quality of cotton it produces. India is seeing farmers revert to conventional varieties due to dire failures in Bt cotton yields that have pushed farmers further into debt and suicide.

Admitting Bt crop failures, the GM industry have since marketed crops with multiple Bt toxins in an effort to delay their futility. However, as this latest study, performed by researchers in Huazong Agricultural University under the Chinese Ministry of Agriculture shows, there are many ways in which Bt crops can have unanticipated and wide reaching effects on the health of our soils and wider environment, some of which go beyond the inability of Bt toxins to target pests.

Some problems seen with Bt crops - including the spread of crop disease and rise of secondary pest attacks - may well be exacerbated by the damage to soil biology.

Living soil is essential to life, moderating climate, storing and recycling water and nutrients, biodegrading pollutants, with humans utterly dependent on its survival for food production, and also serves as an important mitigating factor in an era of unpredictable climate change.

The sacred properties of soil have long been recognised by human cultures, but this knowledge has been eroded by the advent of industrial agriculture that has resulted in declining soil health. In the last 40 years, we have lost an estimated third of all arable land to soil infertility, reflected in plateauing and even declining crop yield gains in the last decade, despite continued increases in economic investments.

This study is the latest warning that a decisive shift from industrial / GMO practices to sustainable, agroecological methods is needed to undo the damage, and ensure food security and health of people and planet for the future.

AM fungi act as ‘underground highways' supplying nutrients, information

AM fungi form associations with an estimated 94% of plant species, an ancient mutualism believed to have originated some 450 million years ago that facilitated the colonisation of land by early plants.

They are a vital component of the living soil, supplying plants with key nutrients including phosphate, as well as water, supporting plants' ability to deal with biotic and abiotic stresses such as drought, salinity, disease and pest attacks. In return, plants supply sugars to the fungi.

While mushrooms are familiar to us all, scientists are continuing to reveal the intricacies and complexities of this relationship hidden underground, performed by a vast network of fungal threads, the mycelial network, that make up most of the fungal body. Interacting with many plants, they work as a communication web, or underground 'highway' through which plants can relay information, such as the presence of pests to its plant neighbours.

Recent findings tell of the remarkable ability of AM fungi to relay warnings of aphid pest attacks from one pea plant to its neighbours, allowing them to produce the necessary aphid-deterring chemicals to protect themselves. A 2016 study has introduced the concept that trees are not only in competition with each other for nutrients, but can share them. Carbon is supplied to neighbouring trees, even those of a different species, via AM fungal networks.

Indeed the soil, and mycorrhizae themselves, are important mediators of the wider ecosystem function, with mycorrhizal biodiversity correlating with ecosystem variability, nutrient capture and plant productivity.

Harvesting the potential for AM fungi to improve food production and maintain the health of the environment is an ongoing field of research and has great potential to mitigate some of abiotic and biotic stresses that limit yield.

Examples of recent gains in the field include a study citing a 20% increase in cassava yields in Colombian fields. Low phosphate bioavailability in tropical soils suggests an opportunity for using AM fungi to improve yields in such regions. Fivefold differences in rice growth was obtained when the soils were inoculated with different isolates of one AM fungi species.

Such studies raise questions on the extent population genetic diversity and species diversity in crop growth, and also whether such effects are direct or indirect. Care must also be given in understanding how introduction of AM fungi to soils will affect existing fungal populations as well as the wider ecological soil and plant community.

What is already understood is that any loss to mycorrhizal biodiversity and abundance is a threat to the stability, productivity and sustainability of crop cultivation. Further, effects on climate change cannot be disentangled from the dynamics of the soil; the soil contains more carbon than plants and air combined.

Whole ecosystems - including agro-ecosystems - must be protected in order to nullify this threat, and that includes reversing the roll out of GM crops and their associated pesticides.

AM fungal damage by Bt toxins contributing to yield failures?

The latest evidence that Bt crops damage this symbiotic relationship may provide an explanation for the failure of the GM crops to thrive. They are increasingly failing to yield, to effectively ward of pests as they are designed to do, and to resist plant attacks, drought and other stresses. These problems are afflicting both Bt cotton as well as maize in various regions of the world.

While this study by Chen et al., is the first to show a direct effect of Bt crops on the early stages of the AM fungal life cycle, it builds on previous reports of altered relationships between Bt crops and AM fungi, including reduced colonisation of crop roots by AM fungi, as well as lower density of fungi spores in agricultural plots.

The spread of previously unseen diseases such as root rot in cotton plants in India may well be, at least in part, the result of damaged AM fungal symbiosis. Root rot was not seen until the introduction of Bt cotton in India in 2002-2003, affecting 2-3% of crops in one region of Andhra Pradesh, which spread to 40% by 2008.

Studies in bean plants have shown that AM fungi are able to inhibit disease progression by the same fungal pathogen (Rhizoctonia solani) responsible for root rot in cotton. Bt Bringal (aubergine), piloted in Bangledesh over the last couple of seasons has also been a complete failure according to reports citing a variety of problems afflicting the crop including fungal infections (including root and stem rot, wilt, leaf spot and fruit spot), viruses and pest attacks.

Farmers have therefore had to use additional pesticides, increasing costs and pollution of food and land.

The failure of reductionist approaches

As highlighted in various contexts, the reductionist approach to food production is proviing top be a failure, with the science clouded by short-term fixes and economic incentives.

Even Monsanto now realise that maintaining a healthy soil is key - if only for them to investigate ways in which they can manipulate individual factors in the 'creation' of microbial fertilizers. As ever, the warping of science to suit ideology means that addressing the issue from a holistic point of view is again lost to the pursuit of patentable intellectual property and corporate profit..

We move one step at a time, addressing each crop stress singularly, only for it to have knock on effects on all other interrelated factors. Increasing tolerance to one stress through genetic modification or chemical manipulation will not solve the multiple stressors that likely impact a crop at any one time.

AM fungi and the rest of the soil community, on the other hand, should be harnessed on a 'whole ecosystem' basis for their ability to improve resistance to multiple stresses, from nutrient depletion to climate change, many of which are difficult for us to predict.


source

Later in the thread I questioned why you would respond with so much vehemence and someone provided me with this answer:

Quote:
Because it's what he does hightor.







maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 12:49 pm
@hightor,
Sigh

1. Saying that one thing you said is "pseudo-science" is not a personal attack on you. I am criticizing one thing you said, not attacking you as a person. You have every right to criticize or disagree with what I say. I don't get bent out of shape.

2. That soil study looks like a valid scientific study. I double checked, this worked is included in an NIH overview.

Evidently GMO Bt cotton has negative effects on soil help. This claim is supported by good science. I accept it. If I made a claim about the soil... then I was wrong about that. I am OK with being wrong.

Part of accepting scientific fact over political ideology is that I will be proven wrong sometimes. In my opinion, this is a good thing.

I am one of the few people here who has ever lost an argument based on facts. I am very proud of that. It is very easy to win an argument by destroying the other side. Usually both sides do exactly that.

But to lose an argument means accepting facts when they don't fit your pre-existing beliefs.

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 01:02 pm
One of the questions I always ask myself when I find myself in an argument is:
What evidence would it take for me to change my mind?

In this case, if there were an NIH report saying that GMOs were generally harmful, I would change my opinion. If there were well-designed studies from the WHO or NAS showing that Golden Rice had negative health effects or grave environmental effects (that far outweigh the benefits) than I would change my opinion.

There are several other new facts that could be presented that would change my opinion. However, I will always consider scientific claims independently (because GMs change soil salinity does not mean they have negative health effects).

I believe in putting facts ahead of political ideology. This means that I will change my mind when facts don't fit my political narrative. It also means that when my political side says something factually incorrect, I will call them out even if I still agree with the general political policy.

Challenging a political ideology, even with clear facts from reputable scientific institutions, leads to nasty personal attacks. I find that unfortunate, it isn't good for us as a society that arguments can't be fact-based.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 01:39 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

1. Saying that one thing you said is "pseudo-science" is not a personal attack on you. I am criticizing one thing you said, not attacking you as a person. You have every right to criticize or disagree with what I say. I don't get bent out of shape.

Saying "that study is not valid" is not a personal attack, but saying "you live your life in an ideological bubble and you do not look at science objectively" is. The latter is your go-to move.
maxdancona wrote:

2. That soil study looks like a valid scientific study. I double checked, this worked is included in an NIH overview.

Evidently GMO Bt cotton has negative effects on soil help. This claim is supported by good science. I accept it. If I made a claim about the soil... then I was wrong about that. I am OK with being wrong.

You should consider asking yourself why you didn't do that before tagging it as pseudo science. Research is research. Some researcher formed a hypothesis and set about to test it then published the results. But when someone whose politics you disagree with posts it here, suddenly it is "politically liberal science". You disregard the conclusion without even researching the science behind it because you don't like the politics of the poster. That is a lot different than reading the link and posting questions about the assumptions, methodology or conclusions of the researchers. Of late, you spend a lot more time attacking the supposed motivations of posters than you do discussing the science they posted.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 02:29 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
"you live your life in an ideological bubble and you do not look at science objectively"


You put this in quotes, apparently attributed to me. Do you have a link where I have ever said that? I think I have pointed out specific cases where I felt that you put political ideology over scientific facts... and I have said that. I don't believe I have ever said "you live your life in an ideological bubble".

I see that you are taking this personally. You shouldn't. There are far worse thing said about me. I don't really take them personally either.

Quote:
You should consider asking yourself why you didn't do that before tagging it as pseudo science.


Scientific facts are true independent of other facts. An ideological narrative wants to lump all of the claims into one bucket... either all true or all false. Scientific facts don't work that way, each needs to be evaluated independently.

1. I don't believe I said the claim that GM organisms negatively impact soil fungus was "pseudo-science". I might have, but I don't think I did. If I did, I was wrong and given the evidence that hightor provided I will admit that I was wrong on this point.

2. I do believe that the claim that we are near the "end of human civilization" is pseudo science. This was the claim that inspired my to start this thread. There has yet to be any solid scientific fact to support this claim (that I find ridiculous).

3. I do believe that the claim that "all topsoil will be gone in 60 years" is also psuedo-science. That doesn't mean that soil erosion isn't a problem... one can be true without the other. I see no valid scientific claim from scientific institutions, or from research to support the idea that the world's topsoil will be depleted in anything close to 60 years.

4. You or hightor or me or anyone else can be wrong about one thing. This doesn't mean that we are wrong about everything.

There are certainly large areas where you and I agree. You seem to take the times when we disagree so personally.

5. My point is that there is often an objective scientific answer to these questions as determined by scientific consensus. This means that what reputable scientific institutions (NAS, NASA, NIH, WHO, IPCC, etc) say have a lot of weight, as does well-designed, transparent research.

I commit to accepting the scientific consensus whether or not it conforms to any political ideology or not. I fact I believe that the scientific consensus often crosses the political ideological lines, and that a science based understanding won't be either politically liberal or politically conservative.

That is the point of this thread.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 04:22 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
"you live your life in an ideological bubble and you do not look at science objectively"

You put this in quotes, apparently attributed to me. Do you have a link where I have ever said that?

I put it in quotes because I was paraphrasing a common response you have made, not only to me but to many people. I could find such comments many times used to dismiss arguments, but you know you use it so it's not particularly worth my time.

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
You should consider asking yourself why you didn't do that before tagging it as pseudo science.


Scientific facts are true independent of other facts. An ideological narrative wants to lump all of the claims into one bucket... either all true or all false. Scientific facts don't work that way, each needs to be evaluated independently.

And yet you make no effort to do that. Instead of looking at the study or poll or other data presented and debating that, you immediately accuse the poster of following an ideological narrative and being unable to appreciate SCIENCE! It seems you think that conveniently absolves you of trying to understand or interpret what was posted. It doesn't. You're trying to debate the poster's intentions (which you actually don't know despite your obvious belief that you do) instead of the merit of what they posted. If you can poke holes in someone's data, by all means do so instead of accusing people of science illiteracy.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 04:46 pm
@engineer,
Again, I don't believe I have ever typed those words. The quotes are inappropriate.

What I have said is that there is a dominant political ideology here, and that sometimes you (and other people) put the ideological narrative over scientific facts. I am acknowledging a reality and criticizing a specific behavior.

I have been told I have an "incredible hatred of women". Here the quotes are appropriate because these exact words have been used by people who share a liberal political ideology. Of course whether I actually hate women is irrelevant to any factual argument... a fact is a fact whether it comes from someone who hates women or not. But that is a direct personal attack and I believe it is intended to be nasty.

I don't take it personally, and you shouldn't either.

Quote:
And yet you make no effort to do that. Instead of looking at the study or poll or other data presented and debating that, you immediately accuse the poster of following an ideological narrative and being unable to appreciate SCIENCE!


I have said very clearly that when there is a scientific consensus that is accepted by reputable, non-partisan scientific institutions (i.e. NASA, NIH etc.) and backed by well-designed, transparent researchers I accept it. That is part of my definition of scientific literacy, and I apply this standard in an objective way regardless of whether the claim fits a liberal or conservative narrative.

My acceptance of scientific facts goes across partisan ideological lines. I believe in accepted science that fit with a liberal world view. I also believe in accepted science that fits with a conservative world view.

Can you say this?
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 05:21 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Again, I don't believe I have ever typed those words. The quotes are inappropriate.

What I have said is that there is a dominant political ideology here, and that sometimes you (and other people) put the ideological narrative over scientific facts. I am acknowledging a reality and criticizing a specific behavior.

Next time I run across it I'll post it for you, but no, you are assigning a belief system to a poster and then criticizing them for it. I think it was you who wrote something along the line of "no one can tell me what I believe" and I agree with that.

Your next line is the crux of the situation. When someone posts a link to something related to science, you are unable to debate the scientific facts. You immediately get political, worrying more about the intent of the poster than the content of the post. You should able to debate science without worrying about the imagined motives of the poster. Maybe your thread should have been "Political science debate is bad science debate".
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 05:37 pm
@engineer,
You really take this personally, Engineer. I think I have hurt your feelings. This is the internet... and whatever you think I have done, people have done far worse while arguing on the same side as you.

I am very careful to separate facts from opinions, and I can point to times when I have admitted I was wrong after seeing new facts. I have done this several times with you, where you have provided more evidence and I have acknowledged that you were correct.

There are correct answers when it comes to science, at least as far as scientific consensus from the reputable scientific organizations.

You are part of a dominant political worldview here... that is factual statement, not meant as an insult. When anyone challenges this ideological perspective here, factually or not, things get nasty. I challenge the ideological narrative, I don't think I ever start the personal attacks Hopefully you see the difference between the two, challenging someone on the facts isn't a personal attack.

I would to see an example of what you are talking about. In the thread that inspired this thread people were making the claim that "human civilization" was ending. Part of this thread was the claim that all the topsoil on Earth will be depleted in 60 years?

Are you saying that these claims shouldn't be challenged? Or are you saying that you believe they are scientifically accurate.

Questioning the dominant political ideology in a public forum shouldn't be considered an offense.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 05:56 pm
@maxdancona,
not really. You are ignoring substantive facts about the ag scientists and enviro medicine specialists are questioning about GMO plants an longe term effects

Also, somehow I get the feeling that you are "joining" your beliefs in the "settled science" about GMO food and seed and have linked it (as if belief in one supports the other belief) which Is about Global warming.
Both are subject to totally different groups of data and evidence. Thats very Conservative thinking. They seem to buy entire bags of beliefs, and I see you doing that.

You should accept global warming because its own data supoorts it .ANNND , if you support safety of GMOs, thats a total different pack of goods.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 06:01 pm
Politicized Science is corrupted science at best, it is not science at worst....it is a lie.

We have become colossal liars as well as deeply ignorant as well as immoral....Civilization is in retrograde.

I am deeply shocked at how fast the West rotted out.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 06:03 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You really take this personally, Engineer. I think I have hurt your feelings.

Again, avoiding the argument. No, the condescension and disdain you display towards your fellow posters is not unique and I read the same all the time (although often more concise). I am trying to discuss you thread.

maxdancona wrote:
You are part of a dominant political worldview here...

And therefore that invalidates my opinion on any topic? Lessens it's value? That is the point I am making. If I (or anyone) makes a statement, debate it at face value. This "well you are just saying that because you live in an ideological bubble" argument you routinely post is just a way dismissing something you don't believe or want to believe. If someone posts a link to what you feel is bad science, it is easy enough to debate the science without pontificating about the your imagined beliefs about the poster.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jul, 2019 06:08 pm
@engineer,
This thread is about political ideology versus science. You are making this personal.

What argument am I do you think I am ignoring?
0 Replies
 
 

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