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Politically liberal science is bad science.

 
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 03:50 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
However there is no scientific backing to the idea that current GM crops are a threat to human safety.

What about ecological damage due to industrial farming practices?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 05:26 am
@hightor,
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/only-60-years-of-farming-left-if-soil-degradation-continues/
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 06:15 am
@hightor,
In good science; each scientific claim needs to be evaluated individually based on the data and the evidence. Just because one type of "ecological damage" done by modern practices is true doesn't mean that another is true.

You are arguing a narrative. That isn't good science.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 06:23 am
@hawkeye10,


This is an example of "Science by Google". You type a pre-existing belief into Google and surprise, surprise, you find an pop-science article that seems to support it. This isn't good science. In my initial post, I list the criteria (general consensus from leading institutions, and well-designed, peer-reviewed research).

The Scientific American letter wrote:
Generating three centimeters of top soil takes 1,000 years, and if current rates of degradation continue all of the world's top soil could be gone within 60 years, a senior UN official said on Friday.


There is no science here. I just spent some time looking; there is no research suggesting that this is true. There are no scientific institutions saying that this is true (although there are apparently some political ones).

And if you type in "soil not degrading in 60 years"... guess what you find? Of course the negative "science by Google" is no more valid, but I am just making a point.

This is also arguing a narrative rather than arguing scientific facts. There is not even a connection to GMOs here.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 06:50 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I only (now) buy certifid non GMO seed of a Saranac variety of alfalfa. Yeh, Ive got leafhoppers and other insects that make my property a mecca for barn swallow invasions, However I dont have giant infestations of Roundup redy pigweed or wild indigo "Spikeweeds" (thats a local name)
Why would you care if the weeds become Roundup resistant you are not using Roundup resistant seed and are now pulling your weeds instead anyway aren't you?

Quote:
The natural environment is an interlaced WEB of ependency (plants-animals- fungi-bacteria).
And that interlaced WEB of ependency has no purpose other than survival of the fittest and you can raise a lot higher yields using GMO seed. So please leave your personal morality out of this and lets talk survival of the fittest.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 07:20 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Just because one type of "ecological damage" done by modern practices is true doesn't mean that another is true.

You miss the point. There are arguments against using GMO crops that have nothing to do with their safety or health risks. Their use promotes monoculture on an industrial scale and has been shown to effect the populations of beneficial insects and soil bacteria.
Quote:
You are arguing a narrative.

You're just arguing another narrative. Neither have anything to do with science.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 07:22 am
@hightor,
Quote:
Their use promotes monoculture on an industrial scale and has been shown to effect the populations of beneficial insects and soil bacteria.
Quote:
Mono culture on an industrial scale is what farming is. That's why you have the cheapest food in history because production is greater than demand.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 07:25 am
@hightor,
This is a thread about good science versus political ideology. You are making two independent claims.

- That GMO crops promote monoculture.
- That this "has been shown" to effect the populations of beneficial insects and soil bacteria.

The first statement isn't well-defined. For this to be a scientific claim you would have to have a metric of "monoculture" and say how these crops promote it. You also aren't saying the extent of the monoculture (just on the farms using the crop, or the crops in general).

The second statement you assert "has been shown". This isn't a scientific claim unless there is a general scientific consensus backed by peer-reviewed, well-designed and transparent studies to this affect. And, all of the studies should be considered.

Why do you believe this claim to be scientifically true?
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 07:30 am
@maxdancona,
It's merely a warning based on evidence of agriculture-caused topsoil erosion around the world. You can find plenty of evidence that it is a real concern. Whether or not it's connected to the use of GMO crops depends on the particular farming practices used in any one location.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 07:38 am
@hightor,
This is a thread about political ideology versus science.

Of course you can "find plenty of evidence" to support a political ideology. That is how political ideologies work, you can take any data or article to support your belief and ignore or reject the articles that refute it.

Good science is objective. It asks well-defined questions that can be objectively tested. And, then it looks at all of the evidence objectively.

With a political ideology, you start with an answer. Then you look for evidence to support it.

With good science, you start with a question. Then you gather all of the data to find an answer which may or may not support your personal beliefs.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 09:21 am
@maxdancona,
But aren't these disputes between "liberal" science and "conservative" science eventually self-correcting? Hypotheses which can be proven wrong eventually fall from favor.

Quote:
This is a thread about political ideology versus science.

They're two entirely different orders of discourse so it's hard to see how one affects the other — they are applied for different ends. So you don't like to see a scientist engaged in political discussions? That's nuts — we need to hear from people with expertise.

How do you determine when a scientific discovery or claim becomes "political ideology"? Should Rachel Carson have been denounced as a political ideologue because her work made powerful people uncomfortable? Are scientists whose findings cause them to speak out about, say, the effect of CO2 emissions on ocean acidity supposed to be muzzled? I don't get where you're going with this. There's a natural hostility between conservatism and the acceptance of new ideas. Often the "politicization" of an issue is simply the resistance of those who are invested in the status quo to concepts which threaten their world view. The two sides aren't necessarily equal — the scientists who said that cigarette smoking won't hurt you, the scientists who claim that CO2 emissions are harmless, the scientists who doubt the safety and efficacy of vaccines don't have a status equal to the those on the opposing side whose findings are popularized in political discussions and referred to when drafting new policies.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 10:17 am
@hightor,
Quote:
But aren't these disputes between "liberal" science and "conservative" science eventually self-correcting?


Can you give me a recent example? If this happens, it seems to take a very long time. We are still fighting over evolution.

We have a set of scientific facts accepted by political liberals, and a different set of scientific facts accepted by political conservatives. This is not a sign of good science.

Quote:
So you don't like to see a scientist engaged in political discussions? That's nuts — we need to hear from people with expertise.


Where did I say that scientists shouldn't be engaged in political discussions? I have never said anything close to that.

This thread is about political ideology versus science. Hopefully a scientist will not present unproven or unfactual arguments. And if a scientist presents something as science that she knows is either unproven or simply wrong, she is doing a disservice.

There is obviously nothing wrong with a scientist participating in political arguments (as I do).
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 11:34 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
We are still fighting over evolution.

The scientific consensus is pretty clear though. The creationist arguments are political, in that they represent a conservative mindset which opposes new ideas or old ideas which threaten are seen as subversive or threatening.
Quote:
We have a set of scientific facts accepted by political liberals, and a different set of scientific facts accepted by political conservatives. This is not a sign of good science.

Got an example? Are they presenting arguments based on the same data? If so it shouldn't be difficult to refute one side or the other.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 12:38 pm
@hightor,
I have given two examples.

1. A scientific finding widely accepted by the scientific community (although there are a few dissenters) that supporst a "conservative" world view.

NASEM Report on Genetically Engineered Food wrote:

OVERALL FINDING ON PURPORTED ADVERSE EFFECTS ON HUMAN HEALTH OF FOODS DERIVED FROM GE CROPS: On the basis of detailed examination of comparisons of currently commercialized GE and non-GE foods in compositional analysis, acute and chronic animal-toxicity tests, long-term data on health of livestock fed GE foods, and human epidemiological data, the committee found no differences that implicate a higher risk to human health from GE foods than from their non-GE counterparts.


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/306263458_Genetically_Engineered_Crops_Experiences_and_Prospects

2. A scientific finding widely accepted by the scientific community (although there are a few dissenters) that supports a "liberal" world view.

American Physical Society wrote:
... Greenhouse gas emissions are changing the Earth's energy balance on a planetary scale in ways that affect the climate over long periods of time (~100 years). Historical records indicate that the Earth’s climate is sensitive to energy changes, both external (the sun’s radiative output, changes in Earth’s orbit, etc.) and internal. Internal to our global system, it is not just the atmosphere, but also the oceans and land that are involved in the complex dynamics that result in global climate. Aerosols and particulates resulting from human and natural sources also play roles that can either offset or reinforce greenhouse gas effects. While there are factors driving the natural variability of climate (e.g., volcanoes, solar variability, oceanic oscillations), no known natural mechanisms have been proposed that explain all of the observed warming in the past century. Warming is observed in land-surface temperatures, sea-surface temperatures, and for the last 30 years, lower-atmosphere temperatures measured by satellite. The second sentence is a definition that should explicitly include water vapor. The third sentence notes various examples of human contributions to greenhouses gases. There are, of course, natural sources as well.

The evidence for global temperature rise over the last century is compelling. However, the word "incontrovertible" in the first sentence of the second paragraph of the 2007 APS statement is rarely used in science because by its very nature science questions prevailing ideas. The observational data indicate a global surface warming of 0.74 °C (+/- 0.18 °C) since the late 19th century. (Source: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html)


https://www.aps.org/policy/statements/07_1.cfm

* I suspect that most conservatives believe the first statement. It fits in with a conservative narrative of environmentalist fears stopping economic and technological progress.

* I suspect that most liberals believe the second statement. It fits in with a liberal narrative of human activity and excess damaging the environment.

* I suspect that most scientists believe them both. Neither the liberal nor conservative narratives matter to the scientific conclusions. What matters is that in each case the data leads to this conclusion.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 01:45 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
...the committee found no differences that implicate a higher risk to human health from GE foods than from their non-GE counterparts.

Which could be seen as part of a "liberal" world view which believes in harnessing technology to solve perennial problems with world hunger. These "hunger liberals" have a big presence in NGOs concerned with development. (Note that the negative effects of agricultural practices based around the use of GMO crops is not even mentioned.)

Quote:
However, the word "incontrovertible" in the first sentence of the second paragraph of the 2007 APS statement is rarely used in science because by its very nature science questions prevailing ideas.

This proviso would fit the world view of someone who see themselves as a "conservative", someone who might look at the evidence but withhold full support until further data corroborates the hypothesis.

I think the scientific community has a duty to alert the public to disturbing trends — and to make it clear when individuals are speaking speculatively as opposed to presenting settled science.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 01:50 pm
@hightor,
This thread is about political ideology versus science.

It is not surprising if you believe that there are "negative effects of agricultural practices around the use of GMO crops". It is interesting that you don't mention the possibility of positive effects of agricultural practices around the use of GMO crops.

You are starting with an answer, an assumption based on a political narrative. I don't know if you took the time to find out the objective scientific findings on this topic. This topic of agricultural practices was covered in the report to which I linked from the National Academy of Sciences.

If you find out that the scientific research doesn't back up your assumptions, would you change your assumptions?

I would.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 01:58 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
I think the scientific community has a duty to alert the public to disturbing trends — and to make it clear when individuals are speaking speculatively as opposed to presenting settled science.


I agree. And, there is good news. Scientists are responding to their duty to alert the public.

Quote:
Scientific and regulatory agencies around the world have repeatedly and consistently found crops and foods improved through biotechnology to be as safe as, if not safer than those derived from any other method of production. There has never been a single confirmed case of a negative health outcome for humans or animals from their consumption. Their environmental impacts have been shown repeatedly to be less damaging to the environment, and a boon to global biodiversity.

Greenpeace has spearheaded opposition to Golden Rice, which has the potential to reduce or eliminate much of the death and disease caused by a vitamin A deficiency (VAD), which has the greatest impact on the poorest people in Africa and Southeast Asia.

The World Health Organization estimates that 250 million people, suffer from VAD, including 40 percent of the children under five in the developing world. Based on UNICEF statistics, a total of one to two million preventable deaths occur annually as a result of VAD, because it compromises the immune system, putting babies and children at great risk. VAD itself is the leading cause of childhood blindness globally affecting 250,000 - 500,000 children each year. Half die within 12 months of losing their eyesight.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/06/29/more-than-100-nobel-laureates-take-on-greenpeace-over-gmo-stance/?utm_term=.a7341646cfa9
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 02:11 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
If you find out that the scientific research doesn't back up your assumptions, would you change your assumptions?

First I'd want to know who funded the research.

Second, you say these are my "assumptions". I can assure you, I've followed this subject for quite some time and I didn't "assume" anything. The negatives are well-publicized. That doesn't mean they are insoluble, however.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 02:46 pm
@hightor,
This is a thread about political ideology versus science. You should apply the same criteria to scientific claims whether they support your personal political narrative or not. You say the negatives are "well-publicized". Of course this is as true about the "negatives" from climate-change deniers as they are about the "negatives" from anti-GMO advocates.

The whole point is that you accept some scientific claims and reject others based on your political ideology, then science has no real use.

We have a set of scientific facts believed by political conservatives and a different set of scientific facts believed by political liberals. That isn't a good thing for us as a society.
0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2019 03:54 pm
Climate Change Debate:
Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO)

Published May 11, 2014
0 Replies
 
 

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