Desecration of the Koran...

Eorl,

I appreciate your sincerity in what you have said. There is nothing wrong with all what you said. I respect your point of vues and understand exactly the struggle that you are going thru. I understand that growing up as Christian felt like waking up and finding around people that give you too much pressure to believe on some Confusing JEsus Christ dying on the Cross and going to Church on Sunday listening to the same nonsense , everybody loving everybody ( faking it of course) and not being able to ask questions. I understand that I have went completly away from that pressure and rejected (May God Forgive me to Say ) God for a while.
Dear Eorl, I was a non-believer, I had anger in me that turned me way away from God. I have struggled a lot in my life .

I have been a scientist all my life and I was fascinated by Math in General and Advanced Algebra in particular . One day I found out that Algebra was an arabic word, then I asked myself : How could the Arabs that live in Desert with Camels create Algebra ? I had no answer for a while then after consulting historical books and on the net I understood that Islam was the turn point of the world's progress. It transformed the most Ignorant people to the most intelligent. Now , when they became so powerful it is when they started feeling self-sufficeint that they have lost their Muslim values and turned back to Ignorance once again. You may not agree with all this but please take some time to find out how Islam influenced the progress of today and you will see that in all the fields in Science they were the one who introduced the basis of all what scientists used to progress. The whole point is that : Why Islam has transformed very Ignorant people to very civilized people and that would tell you that Islam is with Science and not against. Islam is ordering everybody to research and study and be a scientist to understand the greatness of the Creation and use it for our own benefit and not against it.

Eorl, go to my last post here :

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50394&start=180


Michael

NewSoul

The Greeks came up with the word "geometry"... but that does not make me want to bow down to Zeus...

Time to resurrect this post... the Koran is the least favorite book I own and the Bible is a close second... I will just let the Koran sit on my bookshelf to remind me what a terrible book it is. Take a few nice passages and surround them with pure hate and call it a holy book... I could only get a few pages in and when it started comparing Jews and Christians with dogs and infidels. Well, I am not so arrogant about god to insult anyone's choice of religion.. but... The Koran itself is an arrogant, racist book boohooing over the fact that supposedly Ishmael was a bastard. PLEASE GET OVER IT PEOPLE!... We are all equals Jews, gentiles, French, Arabs men and women, gays and lesbians, whatever... The Bible is a fairytale invented to bring shame upon certain people. Just as the Koran is a fairytale too invented to do exactly the same... Islam has precious little tolerance for other faiths and if people want to believe in such rubbish, fine, but don't expect any respect from me for doing so. Just as I don't respect Christians or practicing Jews for that matter. The Koran was ultimately what convinced me to become an agnostic.

As for the preacher down in Florida looking for fame by pissing off the Muslims I think he has a point that Muslims are far too self arrogant intolerant and sensitive and they need to wake the hell up and realize they are not the only people in this world whose opinions about GOD matter. I think it was TOTALLY disgraceful what the Taliban did to the Buddhas in Afghanistan. And they expect they have a dignified right to build a mosque in NYC at ground zero (due to hate directly from their holy book) in light of such disgraceful shameful actions on their own part. The Islamic world has shown no remorse whatsoever for the Taliban's actions. They say this NYC mosque is for dialogue but the Koran forbids proselytizing. They lie! I could care less if the mosque gets built or not. I don't care about any church anymore... I care only about my freedom FROM religion. Islam expects the world to kowtow and show them tolerance and pity yet they have shown no tolerance to the Buddhists who are most likely the most peaceful of all religions on the face of the earth. I do not like Islam or any religion for that matter and I don't really care how many Korans or bibles get burnt or flushed down the toilet.

If Islam wants my respect they have to earn it just as Buddhists have earned my favor...and so far Islam has a below failing grade. So what, many people of Islam are peaceful WOW, BIG DEAL! Their hateful book which they tote is insulting and arrogant and I will never be fooled into thinking that God/Allah what every you call him/her has any part in that book or the bible when there is so much hate and death that has been poured from the pages and justified murder spewn out upon the innocent and docile religions of the world. What Islam has done in Darfur and MANY other countries (even islamists killing other islamists) is a disgrace... Where was the outrage from Islam when the Taliban destroyed centuries old Buddhist shrines? Islam has no conscience, just selfishness and idiocy... The only people who have spoken out against the radical terrorists of Islam are people who have renounced the faith altogether.

I have no faith in the god of Islam (Whether if Allah is frigging ONLY one god or many gods) or of the Bible's or of Abraham's God or Jesus' God and him being the ONLY way to God... or the giant spaghetti monster in the sky... These words of God are a farce.

I have the indelible memory of the Palestinians cheering when the two towers fell in NYC that pretty much sums it up for me and Islam... I could care less about the Koran, it is not hijacked, it is in plain English for all to read, racist, hateful to women sexist, and purely insulting and arrogant toward other religions. It prescribes death for those smart enough to leave the silly religion. The book itself is opposed to religious freedom so why should we expect tolerance from it adherents? The Koran is clearly against US laws just as the bible is too. I consider US laws to be right and these books to be wrong... All men (and women) are created equal is "the truth" and these chosen people, father of many nations, and bastard sons forced to live outside the family gates... has no place whatsoever in the consciousness, dialogues and discussions of rational, reasonable and educated intellects of today. Sins of the fathers, BULL! Burn baby burn... I personally don't ******* care... Islam turned me from faith altogether, it sickens me and I have no more respect for Islam than I do for Aztecs sacrificing their children to their own barbaric gods.

Rex Red.....I wish more people felt like you and had the guts to say it.

THANK YOU TENDER. It seems the more people desire and are fooled by promises of paradise and heaven the more religion turns their world into a living hell.

I honestly desire to love all people, nations and races... religion seems to be the greatest obstacle to this kind of love.

Unfortunately, according to some surveys, 50% of muslims sympathise with Al Qeida

Also unfortunately, according to some surveys, 10% of muslims are extremists
Just like the bible – there is not one iota of evidence to back this claim up

This is a lie.

That’s rather easy – among other things - Islam has the most potent indoctrination practices of all the religions. The requirement to pray so many times a day is a brainwashing technique. It doesn’t matter the teachings – you require anyone to pray that many times a day with any set of beliefs and they will come to believe wholeheartedly in that set of beliefs.

Red, people often believe that religion is an obstacle to love of their fellow man - it's not necessarily the case. The biggest obstacle to love of fellow man is 'difference' - we are uncomfortable with that which is different to our 'norms'. Some people seek to gain power from this discomfort. Religion creates norms, which may be used in this way.

Some religions, like Hindu and Islam, entrench belief norms that treat people differently dependendant on those norms. In the case of Islam (if it is the ideology in power) - if you are not Islamic you are a second class citizen, and in the case of Hindu, you are given a caste at birth (from what I understand), and not permitted to leave that caste.

It isn't of necessity 'religion' per se, but the dear attachment to any set of belief or norm that can stand in the road of love for our fellow humans beings.

Red, may I suggest that you think about the 'ripples in the pond' effect of this 'norm'? I'm not sure how well I can explain it except that I'm fairly certain the end result of a 'decision to not respect the holder of a belief' often damages us, and as I see it, reduces our quality of life.

I think I disagree... It is religion and their "god" that makes people stray from social equality... I think it is the holders of religion that sow division not just ethnic difference. Even in societies that are much alike there are differences in biology, fat, skinny, tall, pretty, ugly, darker, lighter, old, young... but they still identify as one race. Religions add a racial element not basic diversity. Religions make ethnic cleansing an option not ethnic diversity itself. It is ideology not biology that creates racism. Even religions like that of Easter isle and cults in multitude can foster division in the name of "god".


One church believes that Adam and Eve did not have navels so they call themselves the church of the navelites and build a church across the street from their rivals.

I suspect you guard your own religion in an ivory palace while you tell Muslims they lie.

Hi Red,

This is what I just said.
Quite true, and once again we agree. This is an inaccurate take on what I said. I did not tell 'muslims' they lie - I told one specific poster. I also did not state that everything he/she said was a lie, but a couple of specific claims, which were clear lies/deceptive.

As for what religion I hold to - I am somewhat agnostic (I say somewhat because while I like the idea of a God, it is immaterial to me whether one such exists or not). It appears you have misread or not understood my post

I thought I might be misunderstanding you, I now find I was off the mark, sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for the clarification.

I have some current issues with the bible maybe you can help me out.

They stem from the bible's seeming hatred for "the world"...

The bible says he (or she) who loves their life will lose it. As if people who don't love their life will keep it.

Then there is THIS...
Acts 26 12-19
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,

13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

Comment:
The part that irks me is this line... "17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,"

As if we need to be delivered from the human race and then sent back to it... As if the human race is not perfect in its beautiful diversity and as if the inhabited world is evil by nature. I don't want to be set apart, not by hook or by crook. I want to be one of the world, a person in love with the world i desire the world just as they are. I love the world more than i love god.

Hi Red,

I was born into a christian household. I don't look for 'lessons' in the bible these days - there's too many sources of those outside.

The bible was written by men, it’s as simple as that. They say that it was ‘as they were moved by the holy spirit’ – well, I don’t disagree with that, but I don’t think of the ‘holy spirit’ as they obviously thought of it. And because they were moved, and still have all their human prejudices, they simply got some things wrong (like we all do).

Those things they simply got wrong were used by power-hungry men (that hunger for power may stem from fear, self-righteousness, hate etc...but it is the use of power that is the problem) to create whatever havoc they could, for reasons they deceived themselves into believing were justified.

On the flip side, the bible has a lot of good in it – at least, the story of Jesus himself is really quite impressive (whether made up or not)

These days, I would read this as relating to the buddhist concept of ‘attachment’ (love is most obvious form of attachment)...those things we are hold dear are those that can cause us the most grief - all conflicts are caused by contrasting attachments and the struggle for power that ensues. That said - unlike buddhists, I don’t think that attachments are bad in and of themselves.

Another interesting way to compare it is this – think of chasing a girl you are really interested in. All men know that if you come across as desperate, or too eager to please, you don’t get the girl.


I’m sure there was a moral of the story in there, but that was way too much to process


As children we think we are one with our family, as adolescents we start to break away from the family and join society, as adults we move back towards being a family (relationships/marriage/children), and after that, sometimes in order to grow even further, we 'separate ourselves' from society...before returning to it. In most ways, the 'separations' above are mostly one of spiritual growth, rather than physical separation (although we do move out of home). The ultimate separation then, is separation from yourself, before returning to it. This I think, it what eastern mystics and the practice meditation try to achieve, though there are other ways to it than through meditation.
One of the things that really irks me about the bible is it’s claim that we are born sinners. Babies are incapable of sin, and are born ‘pure’. It is as we grow that we gain the ability to ‘sin’. This is a fundamental flaw of the bible.


Perhaps God is the world, and people just made a ritual out of it.

If god is the world, why do humans pray to "it?"

CI,

I don't think humans are praying to 'God', but rather, to themselves. We seem to be by nature spiritual, and prayer is just one way to access our spiritual side.

We see many things reflected in our language (which is absolutely fascinating), including phrases like :

- That's the spirit
- the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak
- his spirit has passed from him
- he was in high spirits
- he was a spirited man
- she lifts my spirits up
- where's your team spirit
- in the spirit of good will, let me....

...and any number of other phrases. The oddest thing I find is that many people deny our spiritual side, but accept common use of such language.

Why can't we as humans pray to/or for the world?

Damn those puritans!

Rex, you said:
The bible says he (or she) who loves their life will lose it. As if people who don't love their life will keep it.

I think the bible is referring to selflessness. The bible often talks about selflessness as , I suppose, opposed to selfishness. Therefore I would think loving one's life in this context would be to act selfishly and losing one's life would be to act unselfishly. Selflessness having eternal reward.
It would seem love and selflessness go hand in hand as seen in 1 Corinthians 13:1-13. The word love is often used interchangeably with charity in these verses.

You also said:
The part that irks me is this line... "17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,"
As if we need to be delivered from the human race and then sent back to it... As if the human race is not perfect in its beautiful diversity and as if the inhabited world is evil by nature. I don't want to be set apart, not by hook or by crook. I want to be one of the world, a person in love with the world i desire the world just as they are. I love the world more than i love god.

In the Lord's prayer we say "deliver us from evil". To "deliver from" in the bible often means to keep safe from. To allow us to pass through an evil situation without being taken over by it. Perhaps to pass safely through unscathed or to keep from being influenced by it so as to not respond to evil with like evil. So Perhaps the above means simply to allow Paul to travel among the gentiles in God's safety.

The bible says God is love. (1 John 4:7-8) Jesus is the son of God. To see Jesus is to see who God is because they have the same spirit. (John 14:9) They call him the prince of peace, this Jesus, this man who came to bring forgiveness to the world and show us how to live in love. You cannot have love without forgiveness. How can you love someone if you cannot forgive them? If you do not forgive them then how can there be peace? This is my biggest objection to islam. A muslim in another forum once said that the difference between christianity and islam is that islam has jihad.

"As if the human race is not perfect..." The world is not perfect. We are not perfect. Christians and, I believe muslims, will tell you only God is perfect. Would this natural imperfection be considered evil by nature? Probably. Yet because we are imperfect we are not to seek vengeance, but we are to forgive others of their imperfections the same as we hope we will be forgiven (John 8:2-11). There is a humility and caring that comes from our realization that we are no more perfect than those we might look down on and judge unworthy. It changes us. It allows us to open our hearts.
Jesus left us with two commandments. The first: that we love God and the second: that we love others as we love ourselves.