Desecration of the Koran...

Dear Rexred,

If you know all this why don't you believe in the Quran ?

I was Christian now I am Muslim because the Quran was more than just something to flash in toilet.

Don't you know that if someone commit a crime , not to be bad to others who were not part of the crime? Isn't it a teaching of Jesus , a teaching of Muhammad, Peace Be Upon them ?

Isn't it unjust to flash the Holy Quran in toilet ?
Isn't it unjust to me, an American Muslim that doesn't have anything to do with Taliban ? Isn't it unjust to 1.5 billion Muslims (-) couple tousands of Taliban ? Even if they were bad, why flashing their Holy book that say nothing but the truth ?
Have you ever read the Quran ? I didn't know anything about it until when I oppened it , from the first verse I saw the truth.

Aren't you curious why Islam is the fastest growing religion even after 9-11 ? I think we Americans, just didn't know about it much but many that read about it , read the Quran , believed in it with all their heart.

Read the Quran and you will know why not to treat it badly..

Michael

I don't like to see books treated badly either...but hey, it's a book.

Unless it's the actual original copy...I don't see how any damage can possibly be done by this, except as symbolism.

That anyone could be upset, let alone killed for a symbolic act is the utmost stupidity to me.

The people killed were killed by their governments because they were expressing their freedom to protest for the abuses that detainees in Cuba are going thru. Are you happy with all the Abu Ghraib tortures and scandals elsewhere ? They didn't kill themselves but were expressing their oposition to what is been done to people. They don't fear consequences and fear only GOD and that is why some have been killed. They don't care if their KArzai or whoever gets mad at them as long as they say the Truth in front of the eyes of GOD.

Can't you tell who is torturing the others ?

Keep in mind that we only hear of few incidents when a leak of information happens but only GOD knows the truth. Did you ever heard of Muslims abusing, raping, torturing ...etc. That would give you a glimpse of what is really going on and the values of Muslims, no matter how bad they are , they would never torture people.

Does not all that get you curious and feel like you wanna discover the truth ? I was curious, I read the Quran and found out that it teaches you the true Justice from God.


Michael

What is your take on flag burning, Earl?

Hasn't the radical Bush administration desecrated the meaning of the flag more than burning it?

Be specific.

NewSoul, I think your declaration that muslims don't abuse, rape or torture is the most naive thing I've ever heard.

Intrepid, burn all the flags you like. Sure it's rude, obnoxious but disrespectful,....so what?

Flag burning is a deliberate provocation meant to inspire retaliation, no worse than name calling. To respond to violent provocation with violence is stupid.

I think nationalism is one of the most dangerous and misunderstood forces....and anti-humanist by definition if not racist. Flags are merely symbols of nationalism.

I see myself as human first.. Sure, I'm proud of my country but not to the point where I would treat an alien any differently.

Earl,
You must learn to read properly, my friend. NewSould did not say that Muslims do not do those things. He asked if you had ever heard of it happening.

You glib answer to me made it sound like I burn flags.

If you consider flag burning no worse than name calling, that is your opinion. I think some may not agree with you.



Quite frankly, I do not understand this statement. Your point?

Re: Desecration of the Koran...


Sure they have.

So?

This has no bearing on whether desecrating the damn book is a torment it is reasonable to add to those already inflicted upon persons of the Muslim faith held prisoner by the US - some of whom are likely to have so desecrated the Koran themselves in my eyes by being terrorists - and many of whom are very likely NOT terrorists.

I hold flags in utter disregard. I would not go burning the stupid things in front of any prisoners of mine whom it is likely to deeply offend - even flags of countries who do lots of things I do not like.

I believe many christians have desecrated the meaning of the bible through two millenia - and again, I hold no special regard for the bible anyway. Again, this doesn't mean I would go flushing it down loos and such in front of people to whom this act - quite meaningless to me - would be deeply distressing, and especially those in such a parlous position relative to me a prisoner is.

Does the fact that many Islamic prisoners appear to have been very seriously abused, tortured - and even some murdered - in American custody mean it is ok for Allied forces who become the prisoners of fanatical Islamist groups to be so treated?

Two wrongs do not make a right.

There's no "a" in Eorl, my friend.



True enough. My answer is yes, in fact I've seen footage of it this week, while threatening to murder a man if my country fails to withdraw troops.



No, I don't think it did, but I think your question made it sound like I was "the kind of person" who would condone it. Never-the-less, I apologize for any perceived glibness!



What part is not clear? I'm not a fan of nationalism. You asked what I thought of flag burning...my view of nationalism explains why I care little about flag burning.

Eorl

I am sorry about getting your name wrong. I should really enlarge the fonts on my screen.

My question regarding flag burning was in reponse to the following quote. I was just wondering if that was, in your opinion, worse than the book thing.

S'Ok Intrepid, it was a cheap point, sorry bout that.

To answer:

I guess I shouldn't be concerned overly much by either, although I have an natural revulsion at the burning of any book (thanks partly to Ray Bradbury) so I would call that worse if I had to make a call. Burning a book symbolically would represent the destruction and/or censorship of human knowledge so I'd object to that also.

Eorl,

Reporter Marie Jeanne Ion and cameraman Sorin Miscoci, both of Prima TV, and Ovidiu Ohanesian, a reporter from the daily newspaper Romania Libera, were kidnapped in Baghdad on March 28 with their Iraqi-American guide, Mohammed Monaf.

the three Romanians, who appeared to be in good health.

Their kidnappers had threatened to kill the hostages unless Romania pulled its 800 troops out of Iraq. Basescu refused, saying Romania would not negotiate its foreign policy with the kidnappers nor pay a ransom.

Even with all this, the Muslim kidnappers did treat the detainees very humanly. Marie Jeanne Ion was she raped ? Why not ?

Ion was wearing the same scarf she wore in the videotape sent by kidnappers, her sister, Ana Maria Ion, said. The scarf that the kidnappers gave to her to look respectful in their eyes. I am a Muslim and I know what that means. Even Laura Bush had to wear a scarf out of respect to the Muslims.

Do you wanna know why they didn't torture them, Because Islam put in the heart of the Muslim the Justice of GOD. Any Muslim who fear GOD only, will never commit such crime simply because all Muslims fear the day of Judgment where every single action will be accounted for to determine who deserves the real punishment and who deserves rewards.
A Muslim know that if he/she treat a cat badly the cat will have a revenge.

So many criminals get away with their crimes, it is normal that GOD , the most Just will gather all of us for a Day of Judgment said to be 50,000 years long to review every single action.

Allah says in the Quran:

044.040
Translation BY YUSUFALI:

"Verily the Day of sorting out is the time appointed for all of them, The Day when no protector can avail his client in aught, and no help can they receive, Except such as receive Allah's Mercy: for He is Exalted in Might, Most Merciful. "



Michael

New Soul

Here is a quote from a man (Shamil Basayev) taking responsibility for the Beslan seige and massacre of 320 mostly children:

In the name of God the Merciful, the Compassionate... Who is responsible for the attacks on Rusnya [derogatory word for Russia]? By the Grace of Allah, the Shakhid [martyr] battalion, Riyad us-Saliheen [Gardens of the Righteous] has carried out several successful operations on the territory of Rusnya.

It only takes one muslim to ruin your theory....these guys did a pretty good job of it.

So let's move on shall we. I'm not against Islam any more than I'm against any other foolish religious nonsense.

I don't have to answer you. You can just go back to my last message and see what it says .

Nobody in this world will get away with their unjustice, Muslims or non Muslims will face the most Just trial by the most powerful. Nobody will get away with anything, nobody will get a lawyer or have 12 witnesses to kinda guess who was unjust and who wasn't because the truth will beso clear. I don't judge others actions but God does.

You think that being a Muslim is enough to avoid the most extrem punishment, well you are very wrong. God says in the Quran that the last person to enter Heaven is a woman that did bad sins and sold her body but one time she gave all her food to a dog that was dying instead of keeping it for herself and that action only made God to save her from hell. That does not mean that it will happen very often with God , most probably that woman had a great heart. God tells us directly what pleases him so we Muslims try our best to obey his orders but noone of us will tell you that avoiding Hellfire is garanteed.
You make so many assumptions about Islam that you don't know nothing about.

The Chechen people suffered so much from Russian's raping, killing and I am not in the position to tell you if he was right or wrong during his leadership and only God in the day of Judgment will be the Judge. I know that I have to work hard on myself and always wish for the better but let me tell you this, if I don't fear the Day of Judgment I won't abstain from doing a lot of evil and I won't be working harder on myself to be a better person everyday.


Michael

edit > oops double post

I don't know what you are going on about New Soul !!

The issue of eventual punishment by theoretical gods has nothing to do the fact that this statement (above) that you made is clearly rubbish in light of reality (a subject with which you seem quite unfamiliar).

You asked have I ever heard of muslims abusing, torturing ....yes I have and I posted an awful, horrific, sickening example. Do you seriously intend to defend it? (Punishment in a theoretical next life is utterly irrelevant to me, so don't bother with that part)

Eorl,

I see anger in you. It is not by telling none-sense that you could convince somebody that your way of life is the best. I repeat, God only knows the truth about events that happen and actions of people. God is the only who is capable of punish severly and bring people to the most Just Justice because he is Almighty, the more powerful ,the more knowing and the more wise. I am here to help you only. I don't think that there is any form of Justice in this World that is enough to punish severely criminals the way they deserve. Also, what is the extrem punishment in this world ? Death penalty ? We all gonna die , so ? .

A man like Hitler, who tortured maybe millions of people got away with his crimes and even if he got caught and brought to justice , what is the form of punishment he will get ? a Death penalty ????? Is it fair that he gets the same punishment as of someone who killed only one person ??

My friend, all our actions will be analysed in the day of judgment and we will only receive what we deserve, in Justice.

Think about people who were tortured, raped, deprivated from any form of happiness since they woke up in this world. Don' t you think that we can't bring people back to life and give them a chance to a fair trial and a revenge on their oppressors ? that will take me to say this :

What is your goal in life ?

What if somebody, just felt like killing you and kill you today or rape a close familly member ?

What if all what I say is true? then , are prepared for your trial ?

GOd gave us holy books with very accurate proofs, examples of people dying unjustly in front of our eyes to fear death and realize that there will be no way that Criminals can pay back for killing unjustly other people...etc.

Dear Eorl, I was only trying to help you see what you don't wanna see. I was trying to help you listen to other points of vues and mainly I was helping you to open your heart and ask it to get rid of anger ,arrogance self-sufficiency and selfishness. I wanted you to open your eyes to the gigantesque creation of GOD. You know that since man populated this world we only picked up materials and built buildings and if you see the Earth from couple miles you will not notice anything that changed in this Earth.
Who are we to be arrogant and think that we are self-sufficient ?
Can you survive without Water ?


Michael

New Soul,

Anger? Well, yes, with regard to the Beslan massacre, and yes some anger directed at you as an apologist for them and many others like them. Anybody not angry about that needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

Having said that, I'm not generally an angry person, and I'm more bemused and amused than upset by your posts.

I appreciate that you think you know all the answers and want to share them with me for my benefit. I had quite a strong disagreement with a hardcore atheist recently trying to explain your position.

The thing is - I think I understand other points of view very well, and while you claim that I am "refusing to see" it is strange that you who claim not only to know that there is a god but also his nature, and what he wants...is accusing me of arrogance and close-mindedness.

I'm not trying to convert you to my world view...you are clearly trying to convert me to yours. To do that you need to convince me first that
a) gods exist,
b)your god exists and
c) you know what he wants
....once you've done that we'll look at all the other stuff shall we?

And as for helping me get rid of my anger...I don't wish to. Anger is a useful emotion. In this case my outrage at the Beslan Mass Murder is not only justified but useful in the sense that if enough people felt the way I do (or alternatively, just one or two people with the ability or power) it may be prevented from happening again.

Can you open YOUR mind for just one moment and IMAGINE how an atheist would feel when his child lies dead in his arms....(dead for good, not under the wing of god or singing songs in a heaven)....to further some-one elses religious agenda. Can you do it? I doubt it...not without thinking "it's ok, because after his death, he will see anyway and get capitalized justice"

In fact I doubt you are even allowed to try to imagine an atheist world-view.

No I can't survive without water. I'll concede that.
Assuming there is an all powerful god, I cannot exist against his will. You are right about that too. (My only problem being with the assumption)

So thank you, I appreciate your efforts to help me. I also understand that it outside your capacity to think you could be wrong about everything (and therefore trying to do me harm despite your good intentions)

<edited - missed a word>