missionaries

I cannot and will not condone all the violence for domination and greed in order to bring so called Peace to the Masses.

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so you dont approve of missionaries and their hogwash - the way the sugar coat their intentions of converting people using "Carrots" of "free education, medicine and clothes, food " etc.

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I think a missionaries position (!) is entirely justifiable in light of their beliefs that know the "truth" about how to get to heaven, god's love, etc, etc....

They are doing for people what they see as maximum good, both spiritual and practical.

It just looks wrong from an atheist perspective like mine.

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I support the missionary position, though not to the exclusion of other stimulating and satisfying positions. :wink:

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Actually, what many missionaries have done throughout history is unconscionable--they were usually nothing more than the spiritual defenders of imperialism. And forcing native people to abandon their culture and adopt the dominant culture--as we've seen in America with the Indian Boarding Schools--is indeed cultural genocide.

That being said, the majority of missionaries today do not force their religion onto those they're preaching to, and they do not refuse aid to those who do not convert. They provide aid and, most commonly, those receiving the aid have to do nothing more than listen to the religious spiel. If some of the aid recipients decide to adopt the missionary's religion, then that's their choice and right as human beings.

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Eorl wrote:

I think a missionaries position (!) is entirely justifiable in light of their beliefs that know the "truth" about how to get to heaven, god's love, etc, etc....

They are doing for people what they see as maximum good, both spiritual and practical.

only missionaries know the truth? other religions are lesser and un-true religions?

are religions tangible items, which can be compared on a spring balance?

is christianity a product that it merits such aggressive marketting - complete with attractive packages "become c hristian - get medicine free", which isnt very different from - "buy a nike shoe - get a pack of durex comdoms free" !!

they arnt doing any spiritual good at all, by dousing age old cultures, beliefs, traditions, and practices. what they ARE doing in that, they are diminishing the religio - cultural heritage of the planet at break neck speed - and irreversibly.

and the whole "practical good" thing, is bull crap - thats just a means to an end - they offer practical help - to bring about the conversion - no other reason. get this - missionaries arnt philanthropes - though they may claim / seem to be.

if i was on the streets, without food and a shirt on my back - and i was a christian - then no missionary would help me - 'cos i was christian already and the "practical help" that they have to offer, would would be wasted on me !! they target only the 1) non christians, AND 2) the economically deprived. both conditions need to be fullfilled.

dont they (missies) take advantage of people's economic misfortunes - and strip them (the victims) of that one thing that they DO possess, despite their poverty - their non-christian religion ?

there's a thin line between a missionary and a mercinary.

missionary / mercenary = social genocide / genocide. period.

missionaries are the greatest conmen on the planet. mother teresa included.

till her last day she refused to help people who weren't willing to convert by giving up their religion - one thats thrice as old as christianity !!

what all missionaries (including mother T) do, is actually set up a sort of barter system, with products like food, medicine, schooling etc on the one hand - and a product called christianity on the other. wonderful !!

and missioary activities isnt good news for the religion/culture at the receiving end of this conjob. one doesnt have to be an athiest to oppose it.

we should crucify missionaries, the way they go around crucifying non christian cultures.

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Mills75 wrote:

Actually, what many missionaries have done throughout history is unconscionable--they were usually nothing more than the spiritual defenders of imperialism. And forcing native people to abandon their culture and adopt the dominant culture--as we've seen in America with the Indian Boarding Schools--is indeed cultural genocide.

That being said, the majority of missionaries today do not force their religion onto those they're preaching to, and they do not refuse aid to those who do not convert. They provide aid and, most commonly, those receiving the aid have to do nothing more than listen to the religious spiel. If some of the aid recipients decide to adopt the missionary's religion, then that's their choice and right as human beings.

and is that cultural genocide likely to stop anytime soon ??

or will they keep trying to convert till the last red indian has a name like martin, joshua or william?

after they have done converting all things two legged, will they christianise cows? i dont put it beyond those bovine missionaries - oblivious as they choose to be about the irreparable social damage they inflict on non-christians.

as for missionaries "forcing" their religion - they dont have to do that. they have worked out better ways. whether or not they have taken a leaf out of the popular management books, is anyone's guess - but they market their product in the same persistant way in which, lets say, nike shoes or durex condoms does. and over time, and under the influence of many different kinds of carrots, they induce/con (as different from force) their victims into accepting christianity. h.b.s. could learn a lot from them.

and no recipient of aid decides to adopt the missionaries religion. thats the condition they have to fullfill to keep getting supplies.

and thats precisely whats meant by "conning" - missionaries do appear to give a lot of help/aid - but actually thats just the means to an end - thats just hogwash - thats just how they sugar coat their henious intentions.

the actual line of approach that missionaries maintain is "first 2 weeks / months medicine/food free - after that, if you want more medicine/food then convert".

with mother T, it was - "convert before you expect even a single medicine tablet or morsel of food". no wonder she was the queen of all the social genociders !!

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Grrrrr, you just reminded me 'The Missionary' with Michael Palin was on last night and i forgot to tape it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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whts that about - the types of conning techniques that missionaries adapt and what smugglers can learn from them ?

is michail plain a cherokee? sounds very like a cherokee name to me Wink

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If the culture is wrong in the eyes of the one true God then should it not be wiped off the face the earth ASAP?

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do you realise that christianity and christian beliefs/cultures is completely wrong in the eyes of other religions? how about they try and wipe away christianity from the face of the earth ? what makes you so certain that christianity is more equal than the others ? its a half-cast religion firstly, borrowing heavily from judaism, zorastaianism and pre-christian european belief systems - and its also a completely mid-wifed religion - peter, paul, tom, dick, and harry etc, are whom we got the teachings from , not from christ himself.

when you said "the one true god" and " wiped off the face of the earth" - you betrayed exactly how narrow minded you are and vindicated my suspision that missionaries, and those who support them, are no different form the Taliban, except that they use hogwash and "carrots" instead of the sword.

congrats !!

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brahmin,

You asked why missionaries do the terrible things they do, and I tried to represent how things must look from the missionaries point of view. Can you not understand that point?

Yes I realise christian culture looks wrong from other religions perspective, but the missionaries know they must do their best to convert every living soul to christianity. They KNOW that their god is the one true god.... For them, it's like dragging drowning people into a boat. Can you not see that?

Now, when you say I betrayed exactly how narrow-minded I am, you forgot that you had asked why missionaries do things, which has nothing to do with what I think personally.

I am an atheist, I don't know of any gods at all. I'm appalled at what religions (such as christianity) have done, but how are you going to make them understand that if you don't understand why they do it?

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Well, I don't respect the missionary position. My sister is a missionary... she ran off from the family after an elaborate wedding without telling anyone where she was for two years. We finally saw her picture in a newspaper article about a religious cult who ate out of garbage cans. She's calmed down since.

But this is not the basis for my opinions.

I get my opinions from my personal belief that no one has any right to press their religion. I greatly enjoy speaking to people about what I believe in when prompted. But when the sole goal is to convert, then I lose all respect. I understand that in Christianity, it is the 'job' of the followers to spread the word ("the word" of course, meaning "the opinion")- but that means nothing to me. If it was their job to kill people or to simply walk into someone's house and just sit and stare for 5 months without speaking, I would still hold the same opinion. I do not justify arrogance merely because they are more driven than the next person. When missionaries such as the ones we saw with the Tsunami go over there in exchange for something, i.e., "we'll give you food and water if you accept God," then it is even more despicable. When the American missionaries went to Iraq to convert those silly evil-doers, and got killed, do you think I felt pity for them? Not an ounce.

It is arrogance, greed, and self-righteousness. Nothing holy or glorified about feeling so correct and so high-and-mighty that your belief gains prestige over someone else's. To missionaries, I recommend the ever-common saying, "don't speak unless spoken to."

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Sanctuary, if you felt a god had spoken to you and told you to do this for the good of the poor ignorant people, you would feel compelled to comply, no? You would feel the guilt of failing those poor people if you didn't try?

I don't respect it either, but I think I understand it.

(Feeling weird fighting the other side here, like the devil himself playing god's advocate)

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Eorl wrote:

brahmin,

You asked why missionaries do the terrible things they do, and I tried to represent how things must look from the missionaries point of view. Can you not understand that point?

Yes I realise christian culture looks wrong from other religions perspective, but the missionaries know they must do their best to convert every living soul to christianity. They KNOW that their god is the one true god.... For them, it's like dragging drowning people into a boat. Can you not see that?

Now, when you say I betrayed exactly how narrow-minded I am, you forgot that you had asked why missionaries do things, which has nothing to do with what I think personally.

I am an atheist, I don't know of any gods at all. I'm appalled at what religions (such as christianity) have done, but how are you going to make them understand that if you don't understand why they do it?

well then its not you who is narrow minded like the taliban, but the missionaries who are!!

to be thinking that other religions are all wrong, and only theirs is right.

when missionaries try to convert others, and thus kill other cultures, the fail to keep their religion to themselves, and shove their own belief system on other perfectly acceptable non-christian religions.

if they think their god is the one true god - then they arnt alone in that thought - all people of all religions think similarly. whats so special about christianity eh?

but happily enough other faiths dont try to convert people into their religion, but missies always hogwash and sugar coat their actual intentions with "carrots". see i got no problem with christians - or followers of any other religion for that matter. only when the followers try to shove their religion down other's throat, by force like the taliban or by shameless tact like the missies, do i have a problem.

and i understand perfectly well why missionaries do what they do - 'cos they think other religions are lesser and wrong religions, good for nothing, 'cos they are intolerant of every non-christian belief system and they think they have every fundamental right to uproot age old cultures by hook crook or carrots.

missionaries are the "smiling taliban".

taliban - guns + carrots = missionaries

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Sanctuary wrote:

When missionaries such as the ones we saw with the Tsunami go over there in exchange for something, i.e., "we'll give you food and water if you accept God," then it is even more despicable. When the American missionaries went to Iraq to convert those silly evil-doers, and got killed, do you think I felt pity for them? Not an ounce.

It is arrogance, greed, and self-righteousness. Nothing holy or glorified about feeling so correct and so high-and-mighty that your belief gains prestige over someone else's. To missionaries, I recommend the ever-common saying, "don't speak unless spoken to."

the "tsumani relief " in exchange of conversion was revealed in "asia today" . it brings out the true colors and characters of missionaries perfectly.

thats very very despicable yes. you approach a person who has lost everything, mobey, the roof over his head, clothes, belongings, family - and then you offer him aid in exchange of the one thing he still possesses - his faith !!!

thats just shamefull, barbaric, spineless and animalistic !!
if this is what the thought process fo the missionaries is, then i am not too sure that the religion/product that the missionaries try to market is all that great - one that believes in taking advantage of other's plights.

i hope some missionary/bishop/pope, ends up losing everything in iraq or somewhere and then is offerd help in exchange of embracing islam - that will teach him.

missionaries are no better than vultures - they wait for the prey to land in some sort of economic/medical trouble (like during tsunami, earth quake) - and then swoop in for the "kill".

swearwords fail me.

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brahmin wrote:

thats very very despicable yes. you approach a person who has lost everything, mobey, the roof over his head, clothes, belongings, family - and then you offer him aid in exchange of the one thing he still possesses - his faith !!!

thats just shamefull, barbaric, spineless and animalistic !!

....OR (from the missionary POV) their tragic plight is actually a blessing in disguise. If it hadn't been for the tsunami, these people would be doomed to an eternity without gods love....but now, he has shown us a way to really, truly, spiritually "save" these poor souls.

The thing you are forgetting is...what's in it for the missionaries? I think they do it for what they see as good altruistic reasons, and you are refusing to acknowledge or even try to understand that.

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Eorl wrote:

Sanctuary, if you felt a god had spoken to you and told you to do this for the good of the poor ignorant people, you would feel compelled to comply, no?

You would feel the guilt of failing those poor people if you didn't try?

but so does everyone, or at least almost everyone !!!

try telling a muslim that gad hadnt spoken to the founder of their religion.
or that non muslims are non ignorant about what to their mind is the true religion of god.

and for heavens sake give the "helping the poor" crap a rest - thats just hogwash, just a means to an end, a sugarcoat and you know it.

i have made that very clear - not that i needed to, its more than obvious that helping isnt their target at all - they just want to con/carrot/take advantage of people misfortunes, to get them to convert, at the expense of the cultural/religious heritage of the world.

and they fail the poor people when they get them to convert.

they betray the trust the poor showed in them (the missionaries) and take advantage of that very trust to get the poor person to part with his last possession - his faith.

thats precisely why all the conversions that missionaries manage to affect, take place in the impoverished parts of the world. in the west, people dont buy their hogwash, and they also dont need the aid/carrot. and even in the third world, the people who are well off, they never get converted - only the ones on the streets.

if someday poverty is irradicated from the earth, missionaries will have to try and convert cows and monkeys to christianity, cos no humen will need the "barter" missionaries offer.

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Eorl wrote:

brahmin wrote:

thats very very despicable yes. you approach a person who has lost everything, mobey, the roof over his head, clothes, belongings, family - and then you offer him aid in exchange of the one thing he still possesses - his faith !!!

thats just shamefull, barbaric, spineless and animalistic !!

....OR (from the missionary POV) their tragic plight is actually a blessing in disguise. If it hadn't been for the tsunami, these people would be doomed to an eternity without gods love....but now, he has shown us a way to really, truly, spiritually "save" these poor souls.

The thing you are forgetting is...what's in it for the missionaries? I think they do it for what they see as good altruistic reasons, and you are refusing to acknowledge or even try to understand that.

who says the people who arnt christian dont have god's love?

i mean how narrow minded can you get? so missionaries think they they are the chosen ones and the rest dont have gods love or are children of a lesser god ??? also they see the tsunami, that killed 100000 people as a blessing??!! whoa !!! and the holocaust was also a blessing??

why dont we just find a final solutionn for gods lousiest creation - the missionarues. the ovens in auschwitz are still around - we just need to rekindle them and feed the fire with missionary fuel.

whats in it for the missionaries ??? you are the one who is failing to acknowledge the fact that missies do it for no altruistic reason whatsoever, but merely to convert the guy of the other religion - a religion which the missionaries consider "wrong" and "deserving of getting wiped off the face of the earth". thats whats in it for the missionaries - the chance to cause social genocide - under the guise of "helping".

they dont help the poor one bit - what they instead do and with meticolous planning, is HELP THEMSELVES to the poor/unfortunate sections of soceity. and thats not how altruism is defined in the dictionary - thats more like "con-job", "hum buggery", "taking advantage" and "duping"

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