Outrage over Japan's plan to slaughter humpback whales

I think it is correct as typed, MO. (The INCREASE thing)

I think the point being made is that behaving in a way the japanese find rude and bigoted, will likely make them more oppositional and resistant, hence making them INCREASE their whaling.

Very sensible!

I'm off now!

So bet you aren't.

As you are talking about "humpback", could someone explain me what's a "hump bar"?

You're right. I'm tired. I misread "insensitive" as "sensitive" ... And it made/makes sense!

Yep, I understood the the point, Deb.

No!

Mischief maker!

Am now!

Bye!

I was asking seriously..

Un accustomed as I am to strong drink :wink: I shall attempt some translations for the term "Hump Bar"


It is a bar that is frequented by office types who , universally consider Wednesdays as the "Hump day"


OR, It could be a bar frequented by randy people who all wish to score without making any long term commitments


It DOES have a Railroad connection in that , "Humping" is a term for trains backing up and the slack within each car connector is compounded by as many cars are in the train. SOme cars, especially those box cars carrying produce, they have installed a side " compression damper" so that the cars do not Hump (band together as the cars couplers are slammed one against the other). However, Im not sure that the damper is called a hump bar. It may be a hump damper. But, whatever, the word "hump" has a number of uses. Itll probably be coopted by the computer industry for some widget or program soon in the future.

Why did you ask?

FM- Just because I passed by a bar, here in Paris, which name is "The hump bar".

Knowing that the word is sexually connoted, I was perplexed about why the owners would choose such name..

No obvious reason suggests itself.....probably it is something prosaic, for instance if there is a hump in the road outside.
Are you sure you've got the spelling right?

You should trust a "demon speller" like me, McT! :wink:

In addition, I believe FM explanation on "hump day"...

Gotcha, I'll try to avoid repeating anything I've already waxed loquacious about.



Works for me! Reasonable people can disagree on a god-awful amount of things and we'll survive. lol



Yeah, cartoonists are brutal, and when they caricaturize other races the nature of caricaturization itself often exaggerates stereotypes than can offend. Often it's unintentional, but cartoons make fun of and exaggerate physical features and can often have that effect on racial stereotypes.

It's considered acceptable for someone to exaggerate an individual's chin or nose or some other personal feature but then all of a sudden the same exaggeration about a generalization in race lands them in hot water.

I sympathize with them, they can't make money by being nice, and they certainly can't make money by being sensitive. So while I don't fault them individually I can still say their work is insensitive. Heck, that's their job. And it is really a whole different debate (one I've had an ongoing debate with a friend about for several years) on whether it's right to make fun of anyone and subsequently whether it's then right to be able to make fun of everyone.



I agree. And that the Japanese may find them offensive may have less to do with them and more to do with history.



I do want to point out that I don't actually find them on the same level, nor do I think the motivation is the same. I think the effects in terms of offense are similar and can harm progress but it's not anywhere near what I compared it to. My comparison had more to do with understanding why Japanese might be inordinately sensitive to it. I may have overstated it in my eagerness to play devil's advocate as well, and should also mention that a lot of Japanese (especially young Japanese) won't care.



I think that to the Japanese mind, they are not going out and commiting an atrocity in order to thumb their noses at others. They are doing something they find perfectly acceptable and merely ignoring the others and then being obnoxious about it because they don't like others telling them what to do. So while I don't think they whale because of the criticism, I think they don't stop or don't curb their efforts largely due to the criticism. It's petulant and childish but very much a part of human nature as well. I remember a comic I once read with a man standing under a sign saying that it was unlawful to juggle knives and thinking something like "I suddenly feel the urge to juggle knives".



Sometimes I don't think it's possible, and I don't think that should stop anyone. I don't fault (morally) the cartoonists, the media, the Australian government or anyone else for making the Japanese feel as insulted as they like on the issue.

But it may not be helpful to their cause.



Not at all. I've very harshly criticized Australia in the past (despite it being my favorite country for most of my life) about things like boat people. I didn't let the worry that I'd offend an Australian stop me and if you want a more on-topic example I was unwilling to let the notion that I'd offend the people whose methods I criticize stop me from doing so either. I did try to make it as constructive as I was able, even though I felt I didn't always do so and I have to make clear that I don't find any moral exception to the fact that others got offended.




Amen. Hell I don't think we even agree on the most fundamental part: whether whales should be killed at all. My desire to see Japanese whaling reduction is motivated only by the desire to conserve sustainable whale populations and we probably don't agree on the fundamental issue even though we can agree that Japanese whaling is not a good thing (to understate it ridiculously) right now.



It depends on what my goals are (as I've mentioned, I suspect ours differ).

From a position that all whaling is morally wrong, I would:
- Recognize that this is a fringe position (important to not try to impose non-existent authority)
- Campaign to change people's minds, and not campaign to have authority prevent them from thinking that way

So if I held this position, I'd get what authoritative measures I could on more widely-held portions of the position, like the conservationist position, and not mix them with the more fringe positions as that helps neither end of the spectrum. I'd then use the "honey attracts more flies than vinegar" approach and try to compell change in the hearts and minds of the people I disagreed with. Now as I know you know, young Japanese don't have a paricular attachment to whale meat, and this can probably be a societal habit that can be changed (think more like the enviromentalists commercials than the Oz media's cartoons). I also know you may feel that Japanese are whaling for irrational reasons and just stockpile it, but I think that if it is so they do so out of the over-emotional reaction they have to the over-emotional criticism and that normal people won't continue to commercially whale when it's not commercially viable.

From a position that whales need to be conserved and over-hunting prevented:

- Recognize that mixing the other positions into this one is dangerous
- Campaign for more specific treaties that don't confuse the issue with stuff like "scientific research".

So to preserve species from extinction I'd do away with the "scientific research" nonsense altogether and simply establish quotas for commercial whaling and focus on making sure the quotas are selected as accurately as can be (from a perspective of sustainable populations). I'd be very careful to distance myself from the position that all whaling is morally wrong since the slippery slope that the whalers would see upon accepting the conservationist position toward the animal rights position would harm acceptace of the conservationist position and subsequently any adherence to it if the whalers are bludgeoned into agreement.



Japan displays incredible cultural insensitivity to Australia, and I though I mentioned it many times here I certainly didn't highlight it enough. But that's just a Mexican-standoff (I wonder if that's culturally insensitive, lol) and then we are back to the basic facts: Australia doesn't have any authority over Japan. The US doesn't either but in the current state of international law, "might makes right".

That sucks, so I'd be clamouring hard to vest more power in real international authority, since issues like whales are of import transnationally and are also nearly entirely within the lawlessness that is internatinal law. That takes sacrificing one's own nationalism and sovereignty (to some degree) and that's another reason the nationalism in the debate (if you don't agree on it being on the Australian side I'm sure you at least agree with it being on the Japanese side) disturbs me so.

I don't think Japan thinks Australia and New Zealand are "small fry", just that they are not "bigger fry" and yes the US is. So if we take a page from forward-thinking folk like those forming the E.U. one reaches the conclusion that if you don't have the economic might on your own, you join forces with similar-thinking nations and get there together.

Yes, Australia and New Zealand don't have the power to make Japan do anything. The US currently does and from a diplomatic perspective it would have cost less political capital (and saved time, which equals whales) to skip all the direct talks and campaigning and gone right to the US.

So I'd still go about things very differently from all positions against Japanese whaling. And things that all of these positions should agree on is:

- More effort to change minds instead of authorities
- More work toward globalism (I mean it but yes I'm being an ass for making such a polemic issue so simple)

Robert Gentel,

Another thought provoking post.

This time I'm going to do the sensible thing & read your comments at my leisure (a few times!) & then consider what I might want to say in response, later. I think this is definitely a wise move on my part! :wink:

But I must say that it has been refreshing to have "the other side of the argument" expressed with considerably more intelligence (& effort) than it has been to date!

Speaking of Oz cartoons: just prior to your post, I was responding to another (US) poster (on an Oz political thread here) who also found them a bit confusing. Funny, you see text & pictures every day in the media in your own culture & it never occurs to you that folk from other cultures might have a completely different take on what's been "said".:

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3011146#3011146

Hmmmm ....
Tough (Oz) words, but where's the follow up?:


Government's whaling stance questioned
January 4, 2008 - 4:03PM/the AGE

The federal government has defended its stance on tackling whaling in the Antarctic after revelations its surveillance ship has not yet left Australia while the Japanese whale hunt is well advanced.

Japan plans to take 935 minke whales and 50 fin whales for research purposes this summer season despite strident international criticism.

A spokesman for the Japanese whalers has told AAP the research program, known as JARPA II, is "midway through".

But the Australian Customs ship Oceanic Viking, which Foreign Affairs Minister Stephen Smith said on December 19 would leave Australia within days to monitor the fleet, has not yet left Fremantle.

Whaling appears to be progressing unencumbered as the Greenpeace protest ship Esperanza is still searching for the Japanese fleet.

Greens senator Rachael Siewert is angry that little has been done by Australia after promises of tough action by the new Labor government.

"After talking up their response, the new Labor government have done little more than the previous Howard government to tackle the whale slaughter," she said.

"The Oceanic Viking still hasn't left port in Fremantle and the spotting plane that is supposed to document the whale slaughter has not even been registered for use yet.

"So what we are left with is a lot of talking and no real action - just like the Howard government."

Mr Smith, along with Home Affairs Minister Bob Debus and Environment Minister Peter Garrett, issued a statement today outlining the government's action to date but giving no explanation as to what has delayed the Australian ship and plane.

The ministers said Australia had already dramatically increased its diplomatic efforts against Japan's whaling program.

"Australia led the largest international protest of its kind in Tokyo against Japan's scientific whaling program, with the participation of 30 countries and, for the first time, the European Commission," the statement said.

"The foreign minister spoke personally to Japan's foreign minister on December 21 to convey the Australian government's strong opposition to Japan's scientific whaling program.

"In addition, a special envoy on whale conservation will be appointed to convey our views to Japan and increase and strengthen dialogue at senior levels."

They said Australia would upgrade its efforts at the International Whaling Commission, which sets rules on the conservation and protection of whales.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/whaling-ship-still-in-port/2008/01/04/1198950056510.html

I don't suppose the Australian government's lack of action (& what seems to be a loss of resolve) has anything to do with this? Seems there's quite a bit of bargaining going on between powerful forces behind the scenes, outside the IWC process.:

Saving humpbacks to kill other whales
Andrew Darby in Hobart
December 29, 2007


Antarctic hunt.
Photo: Greenpeace

A BACKROOM deal designed to restore Japan's right to commercial whaling is behind its decision to spare humpback whales from its Antarctic hunt.

Japan's Minister for Foreign Affairs, Masahiko Koumura, has detailed a bargain with the US chairman of the International Whaling Commission to "review" the contentious kill of humpbacks from Australian stocks.

Mr Koumura said Japan agreed with a US request to postpone the catch while the deadlocked 78-nation commission keeps moving towards "normalisation".

Japan wants to "normalise" the organisation by returning to its 1946 purpose of regulating whaling, and lifting the global moratorium against the industry, said Japan's deputy whaling commissioner, Joji Morishita.

Whaling's opponents say the humpbacks are now being held hostage to this aim. Japan's decision to remove humpbacks from its scheduled 1000 whale "scientific research" kill, for now, was flagged by the US ambassador to Tokyo, Thomas Schieffer, shortly before it was announced last week. It followed a determined Australian-led public campaign against hunting the whales, known for their spectacular aerobatics and confiding nature around boats.

At the time, Japanese officials pointed to Australian public concerns as a reason for their decision. But the terms of the deal were detailed by Mr Koumura after he spoke to the Australian Foreign Affairs Minister, Stephen Smith, and were posted recently in English on the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs website.

Mr Koumura said the chairman of the international commission, a US fisheries official, William Hogarth, told him it was not functioning effectively.

"He is seeking to remedy this situation, for which he asks for the co-operation of Japan, currently the vice-chair of the IWC," Mr Koumura said. "Mr Hogarth requested that Japan reviewed its plan to catch humpback whales while such a reform is going on."

Mr Koumura said that, as the current vice-chair, Japan would co-operate with this reform. "Japan has decided to postpone its catch of this species while the IWC is judged to move towards normalisation of its activities."

He said Mr Hogarth believed the review of the commission would last one to two years, and if no progress was made, the situation would change for Japan.

The International Fund for Animal Welfare said it was clear the humpbacks were being held as a bargaining chip by Japan. ....

http://www.smh.com.au/news/whale-watch/humpbacks-a-bargain/2007/12/28/1198778702576.html

The "campaign" is looking somewhat farcical this summer, I think. No one seems to have any idea of what's going on with the whalers in the Southern Ocean. From one of the articles above:

"A spokesman for the Japanese whalers has told AAP the research program, known as JARPA II, is "midway through"."

.. & they have reached this point with very little (any?) scrutiny of their activities at all.

Sadly, I'd like withdraw this comment, made just a few weeks ago. Lots of positive talk on the part of the Australian government, but where's the follow through? Sigh.:



Pledge to monitor whalers 'a sham'
Ean Higgins and Steve Creedy
January 05, 2008/the AUSTRALIAN

THE Rudd Government's commitment to stop whaling has been condemned as a sham, following the revelation that the company that will conduct aerial surveillance of the Japanese fleet sought approval to do so only yesterday.

As the time required to win clearance from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority is uncertain, the spy operation may not be approved until after the summer whaling season has finished.

"The process has started but it's only just started and there will be a lot of issues that have got to be identified, discussed and addressed," CASA spokesman Peter Gibson said.

The Weekend Australian has also established that the company that runs the A-319 aircraft, Skytraders, does not plan to conduct independent missions to find and track the Japanese whaling fleet in the Southern Ocean.

Rather, Skytraders chief executive Norman Mackay said yesterday, the company's plane would run "diversions" while on once-a-week scheduled flights between Hobart and Casey Station in Antarctica.

This approach would limit the surveillance to a brief fly-over, and only if the position of the Japanese fleet were known and close enough to the Hobart-Antarctica route.

The Government was stung yesterday by reports revealing that despite Foreign Minister Stephen Smith's promise on December 19 that the ship tasked with monitoring the fleet, Oceanic Viking, would sail within "a few days", it was still in Fremantle.

Mr Smith, Environment Minister Peter Garrett and Home Affairs Minister Bob Debus yesterday issued a joint statement trying to hose down the row by saying there was plenty of time to conduct the operation.

"In previous years, the Japanese whale hunt has commenced in December and has continued until late February or early March," the ministers said.

"The Oceanic Viking will be deployed for up to 20 days, asignificant portion of the current whale-hunting season."

Critics said the reality of the operation was far less ambitious and determined than the impression provided by Mr Smith and Mr Garrett last month.

Then, Mr Smith spoke of sea and aerial surveillance "for the purposes of taking photographic and video evidence to use in an international legal case".

Greens senator Rachel Siewert said the latest disclosures proved the Government's promises were hollow rhetoric. "They wanted to come out heavy, to be seen to be doing something, and they have not followed through," she said.

Opposition environment spokesman Greg Hunt said the Government had broken its election promises and "also sent a message to the Japanese that we're not serious, that we're not a strong Government, and that it was all just domestic posturing".

Greenpeace spokesman Rob Nicoll said Oceanic Viking's presence in the region would probably deter Japan from targeting endangered whale species.

Mr Debus's spokesman, Alex Cramb, did not answer questions about the A-319 and Mr Smith's spokesman, Andrew Dempster, did not say whether the Government knew where the whaling fleet was.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23008809-601,00.html

welcome to the world of betrayed constituency Msolga. We in the US had elected a majority of Democrats in the last Congressional elections based upon strong Democrat resolves to end the war. Weve been sold out by our Democrats. SO I dont know who to trust anymore.

In the US the saying is that "GOp skins you from the top, while Dems skin you from the bottom up.


POX POX POX, may all politicians burn in a special HEll!!

Sea sheppard has only just left port after repairs, Greenpeace have been unable to locate the whaling fleet.