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Outrage over Japan's plan to slaughter humpback whales

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:32 pm
spendius wrote:
dadpad wrote-
Quote:
All of the products produced from whales have been adequately replaced. there is no need to hunt the macro species.


spendius wrote:
Don't the people who finance the hunting ships put their money down on the basis that this is untrue. It must cost a lot of money and if there is no need, as you assert, they must be going to lose the lot.


spendius

My understanding is that Japanese consumption of whale meat had declined considerably since the second world war. Recently there has been a strong marketing push to increase it, through advertising & the promotion of reintroduction of whale meat in school lunches (a big money spinner, apparently) as a means of profiting from the stockpiles gained through "scientific" whaling. I suppose that if the meat is promoted strongly enough, and is affordable compared to other meat, then the Japanese public will continue to buy it. Presumably the companies that profit from "scientific whaling" are making a profit from it. And are working on creating an even larger market to gain even more profits. There are, of course, alternatives to consumption of the flesh of endangered species. The point is, those promoting this practice and profiting from it, are doing it under the guise of "science".
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:53 pm
Olga-

Science,and indeed art, of which religion is a sub-division,are concerned solely and exclusively with money. As Bob Dylan once said during those weary years when they didn't allow tits to be shown in movies-"Money doesn't talk-It swears." And that's way,way back in the dim and distant.

Are you not aware of that? Once Andy Warhol had explained that back in the old days I thought everybody knew.

Are you in favour of the Dow plunging through the cracks in the floorboards?

I'm not!!!
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 06:12 pm
spendius

I've always been in complete agreement with Dylan on that one. But it's all about money now. A pity Bob hasn't maintained his rage. There's some excellent material out there, right now & no one's exploiting it! Oh yes, I'm aware of it, alright. I just never believed that greed could reach such staggering, dizzy heights! What ugly times we live in.

Do I care if the Dow plunges? Not a lot. I'm not much of an investor, I'm afraid. To do that you've gotta have many $$$$$. Actually, I care a lot more about animal welfare & saving the whales. :wink:
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 06:27 pm
Olga wrote-

Quote:
A pity Bob hasn't maintained his rage.


He's a bit resigned now. "Everything is Broken" he reckons.

I'm not so sure myself.

Hey-did you see him live with Tom Petty when he did that scarifying It's Alright Ma I'm Only Bleeding and when he got the wind howling with When the Night Comes Fallin' From the Sky, in Aussieland.

I have a bootleg vid of it and that's pretty bone scraping. 198odd I think it was. Being on the front row must have a been a bit "leaning back in your seat" stuff.

I wouldn't fire a harpoon into a whale for all the money in the world. I wouldn't even consider it.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 06:48 pm
spendius wrote:

He's a bit resigned now. "Everything is Broken" he reckons.


I know where he's coming from!
I hope he's wrong.

I once saw Bob from the 753rd row of a huge theatre in Melbourne. I was in a balcony seat. He was an interesting blurr on a distant stage, I'm afraid. Oh well ... The next time I saw him was from the 17th row, side seat. I think it wasn't meant to be.

I knew you wouldn't ever fire a harpoon at a whale, spendius. To even contemplate doing such a thing to such an inspiring & beautiful creature: unthinkable. If you don't need to do it to survive, then why on earth do it at all? And the terrible pain the poor creatures often endure before death. Awful.

Gotta go now. And get ready for work & all that ....
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jun, 2006 08:07 am
Very interesting article exploring Japan's attitudes to whaling. And suggesting tactics that could be employed to persuade the Japanese to cease whaling. It debunks some of the myths, like the Japanese claim that whaling is a "traditional & cultural right". I got my facts wrong in my earlier post today:apparently eating whale meat only took off after WW2:

Yet traditional whaling seems to reside in that realm of mythical reality that characterises so much of what's called tradition in Japan. After all, whale consumption took off in Japan only after World War II, when US general Douglas MacArthur encouraged whale consumption to supplement Japanese protein intake. By the time of the moratorium in the 1980s, beef and other sources of protein were being consumed in the Japanese diet. So when the ban began in 1986, fewer than 1000 jobs were lost in the whaling industry.

But what I found most interesting was the reasoning behind the Japanese defining whaling as a fisheries issue:

....So if most present-day Japanese people aren't into it and there is no viable industry to save, why does the Japanese Government insist, indeed revel, in being an international pariah by promoting commercial whaling? The answer can only be fishy politics.

The problem is that although whales are mammals, Japan defines whaling as a fisheries issue. The kanji character for whale is a combination of two parts, the first being the sign for fish. Nearly all kanji characters for fish names, from snapper to kingfish, are of the same two-part design. So it's no surprise that Japan's diplomatic charge at the IWC is led by the Fisheries Agency, a rather stuffy and conservative government department compared with the more elitist and outward-looking Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Fisheries Agency officials fear that if Japan backs down on whaling, it will also have to back down on other fisheries issues, such as tuna and salmon. That may sound like rampant paranoia, but history tells another story. .....


The writer goes on to suggests an alternative approach to "moral persuasion" to convince the Japanese to back down on whaling:

........ If Japan sees whaling as a fisheries issue, then it is worthwhile for anti-whalers such as Australia to consider its own brand of fishy politics. Anti-whalers can consider linking whaling with other fisheries issues to pressure Japan to back down or to use other international legal forums, as some environmental non-governmental organisations have suggested. More important, merely tut-tutting Japan's rather insidious vote-buying tactics at this week's IWC annual meeting serves no one's cause, least of all that of whale conservation. It's time to get down and dirty, even fishy.

<complete article>
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20876,19473162-7583,00.html
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jun, 2006 05:56 pm
Ms Olga wrote-

Quote:
The writer goes on to suggests an alternative approach to "moral persuasion" to convince the Japanese to back down on whaling:


Why not bomb the emperor's palace after giving them 3 day's notice so they can evacuate women and children and men with their knees knocking. Surely a bit of property on the other end of the earth is less important than saving the whales. I've seen it on Google Earth and it's only some bamboo arranged tastefully.

I cant see "moral persuasion" working. Trying that is tantamount to sentencing untold numbers of perfectly innocent whales to a violent and painful death.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jun, 2006 06:44 pm
"der grosse nordische WALFISH"
http://www.marineantiques.com/images/51.jpg

ms olga :
you wrote :
"The problem is that although whales are mammals, Japan defines whaling as a fisheries issue".
you make a very interesting point .
while in german a 'whale' is called a 'wal' , it used to be called 'walfisch' (see above pix) .
i would think that the reason for calling it a 'fisch' was , that fishermen (i'm using the term loosely ) were employed to go whale hunting .
just recently read an interesting book about the whaling business conducted out of new england (borrowed the book from the library and can't recall the title) . the book was the diary of a young scientist (about 1900) who went with a whaler to the south-georgia islands and recorded the scientific experiments and findings .
while the captain was a new-englander most of the sailors came from the caribbean , but the 'harpooneres' (?) came from the cape verde islands .


i just recall , that in the book it is stated that the most valuable part of the whale was not the meat or blubber but the 'amber' (used in the production of fine perfumes ; it has now largely been replaced by sythetics ).
could the japanese perhaps be making a tidy profit by selling of the amber ?
(it reminds me of the slaughter of the rhinos to make a highly prized powder out of their 'horn' for the asian market).
there seems to be a market for almost any 'crazy' product .
seahorses seem to be another species being caught in such huge quantities that they may become extinct
hbg

http://www.seahorses.de/pferdgelb15.jpg
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 05:29 am
Ms Olga-

It's just been on the news here that Norway is also seeking to resume whale hunting.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 07:34 am
The IWC meeting starts tomorrow.:

Last Update: Friday, June 16, 2006. 12:35pm (AEST)

Greenpeace fears whale meeting expulsion

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200512/r68086_188543.jpg
Greenpeace boats alongside a Japanese whaling ship (ABC)

Greenpeace says it expects to be thrown out of the International Whaling Commission (IWC) meeting on the Carribean Island of St Kitts.

Australia is leading the anti-whaling campaign but conservation groups are concerned that this year Japan, Norway and Iceland may have the numbers to secure a majority vote.

Japan wants the environmental group penalised for an ocean clash between Greenpeace's Arctic Sunrise and the Japanese whaling fleet earlier this year.

The third item on the IWC agenda will be introduced by Japan and is titled "interference with scientific research".

Greenpeace expedition leader Shane Rattenbury says the group may lose its observer status at the hearing.


"Anyone that criticises the whaling program or interrupts it in anyway will be kicked out of the Whaling Commission and they're silencing their critics," he said.

On the eve of the meeting, Australia is doing last-minute lobbying in its campaign to stop global whaling.

There are now 70 members of the IWC, with at least four countries recently signing up.

International Fund For Animal Welfare (IFAW) spokesman Joth Singh says if pro-whaling countries win the vote, that will see key conservation issues removed from the agenda.

"If that happens, obviously, I think the direction of the IWC is going to change, it's going to become back to a whaling club and I think revert back to what happened in the 1970s, when whalers were in charge of the IWC," he said.


On paper, Japan is expected to secure a slim majority but all countries must be present at the commission meeting for their vote to count.

Guatemala is now not expected to attend and it is believed the Solomon Islands may abstain from key votes.

The meeting begins tomorrow.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1664682.htm
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 07:42 am
spendius wrote:
I cant see "moral persuasion" working. Trying that is tantamount to sentencing untold numbers of perfectly innocent whales to a violent and painful death.


Moral persuasion appears to have achieved nothing much at all, spendius. And judging from the reports we've been getting here, Japan has has been busily bribing a number of small nations to support its agenda at St Kitts. There has be to a better way to decide these issues than the IWC!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 07:52 am
It is impossible to escape the conculsion that the International Whaling Commission was established to allow whaling, rather than to prevent it.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 08:00 am
hamburger wrote:
"der grosse nordische WALFISH"
http://www.marineantiques.com/images/51.jpg

ms olga :
you wrote :
"The problem is that although whales are mammals, Japan defines whaling as a fisheries issue".
you make a very interesting point .
while in german a 'whale' is called a 'wal' , it used to be called 'walfisch' (see above pix) .
i would think that the reason for calling it a 'fisch' was , that fishermen (i'm using the term loosely ) were employed to go whale hunting .
just recently read an interesting book about the whaling business conducted out of new england (borrowed the book from the library and can't recall the title) . the book was the diary of a young scientist (about 1900) who went with a whaler to the south-georgia islands and recorded the scientific experiments and findings .
while the captain was a new-englander most of the sailors came from the caribbean , but the 'harpooneres' (?) came from the cape verde islands .


i just recall , that in the book it is stated that the most valuable part of the whale was not the meat or blubber but the 'amber' (used in the production of fine perfumes ; it has now largely been replaced by sythetics ).
could the japanese perhaps be making a tidy profit by selling of the amber ?
(it reminds me of the slaughter of the rhinos to make a highly prized powder out of their 'horn' for the asian market).
there seems to be a market for almost any 'crazy' product .
seahorses seem to be another species being caught in such huge quantities that they may become extinct
hbg

http://www.seahorses.de/pferdgelb15.jpg


Thanks for that very interesting post, hamburger. I wasn't aware of the connection between whale by-products & the perfume industry. So I spent a while Googling to try to find out more.:

Ambergris:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambergris

Amber, grey amber or ambergris is mentioned a number of times in connection with the Japanese incense industry, though how lucrative this industry is & if this could be a further incentive to continue whaling, I haven't been able to establish. It made me wonder, though, what other profit motives there could be for killing whales apart from their flesh.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 08:03 am
Setanta wrote:
It is impossible to escape the conculsion that the International Whaling Commission was established to allow whaling, rather than to prevent it.


.. & that it's a very corruptible organization!
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 08:19 am
msolga wrote:
Setanta wrote:
It is impossible to escape the conculsion that the International Whaling Commission was established to allow whaling, rather than to prevent it.


.. & that it's a very corruptible organization!


I'm also thinking, Setanta, that I can't see why the UN can't take over (or at least play a much bigger role) in the protection of whales. This is too important an issue to be simply left to the pro-whalers & conservationists to battle out. I was surprised that whaling was not mentioned here:

UN urges urgent action on oceans:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1665218.htm
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 08:32 am
A transcript of a report on AM (ABC radio/Australia) today:

Japan may have majority at Whaling Commission:

As the International Whaling Commission prepares for one of its most important meetings, it appears that Japan and the pro-whaling camp have finally secured a slim majority of the votes.

If Japan, Norway and Iceland have the balance of power, it's likely that conservation items on the agenda will be scrapped, and secret ballots will be brought in.

Environment Reporter, Sarah Clarke, reports from St Kitts where the IWC meeting is being held.


http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1664472.htm
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 09:19 am
Ms Olga wrote-

Quote:
Australia is leading the anti-whaling campaign


Is the motive moral or economic?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 09:36 am
spendi, inferring some moral imperative here said
Quote:
Is the motive moral or economic?


Why does it matter? If its good economic sense to keep coastal whale stocks large enough so that "whale watching cruises" can be an economic engine isnt this as valid a reason as is the purely selfless concern for a fellow critter.

Genetic and species diversity on our planet serves everyone good. Do you fail to recognize this? or are you so caught up in your cynical views of humankind that you dont have any room for any other points of view? Craig Venter is busy spending a fortune trying to collect and stash genetic diversity from the planet before we wipe it out. He feels that he will reap a monetary reward in applied genomics and he isnt sure how at this point. Thats what entrepreneurs do, they take risks and do things that people like you want to demonize . I see nothing wrong in trying to save whales for economic reasons as well as moral. There is no implied moral high ground on the underlying motives. Thats a cheap trick that our several "rape and pillage" Conservatives try to feed us. "Technology will be able to solve this problem later but we should drill the hell out of (add widerness zone here) now".
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 09:41 am
spendius wrote:
Ms Olga wrote-

Quote:
Australia is leading the anti-whaling campaign


Is the motive moral or economic?


Who knows, spendius? Confused I guess you'd know that our current government could hardly be called progressive? Not exactly big on morality, either! Maybe it has some thing to do with Oz being "girt by sea"? A lot of whales in that sea that surrounds us! And ther's the Antarctic. Australians on the whole are complete suckers for whales, so maybe that's got something to do with it? One decent thing this government does? In any case, they are constantly criticized by the Greens & other environmental groups for not taking a stronger line with the Japanese & relying on "diplomacy". Look where that's got us!
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 09:42 am
... as for an economic motive, there's not much to be gained financially ...
0 Replies
 
 

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