the 'proof' problem

Re: the 'proof' problem
Hi there Mark, and welcome to A2K. Nice to see a fresh face...

Anyway.

Phineas Taylor Barnum once said "there's a sucker born every minute" and often refered to the fact that people want to be fooled, reading your post I was again reminded of this.

The clever cult leader doesn't say "Oh dear, people don't believe our outrageous stories. We must be going about this the wrong way". No, not at all. Rather they say "The people don't believe because they are evil sinful creatures." and "it's good that they don't believe but we are the chosen select few".

It's hardly unique to christianity. You can see it in the majority of UFO millenium cults and practically any display of any con game ever.

This idea was probably best expressed in the story "The Emperor's new clothes" written by Hans Christian Anderson in 1837. Several con-men convinced an emperor to "buy" some non-existant clothing by claiming that it was invisible to anyone unworthy. Likewise all those who saw the emperor naked wouldn't point it out, or they too would be unworthy.

Only an innocent child pointed out the obvious truth, that the emperor was in fact naked. While casting myself in the role of innocent child would perhaps be putting a wolf in sheep's clothing, I never the less find my duty is once more to point out that people are fooling themselves and others with the oldest con trick in the books.

Never kid a kidder.

Welcome to A2K.

Hey Mark, welcome to A2K. Where nothing goes unchallenged.

I Read your sermon. You fall into your own trap there.

You start with an assumption that there is only one God. I say you are wrong. My GOD exists and he is bigger than your god. He just "IS." You MUST accept that he exists and is bigger than your God just because I say so. The mere existance of the world proves it. I can show you this GOD if you merely renounce Jesus and call on my GOD. The problem with people like you is that you "would rather not surrender."


Let me modify your words to show you how your sermon should read if you followed the REAL GOD.
"We have no choice in the matter that we were created. We are stuck with our very existence - we cannot be unborn. GOD the Creator, (NOT the god of abraham, but THE GOD) chose to create whoever and whatever pleased Him. We cannot escape the fact that we are accountable to a Higher Being. Fighting the Most High GOD can become an eternal struggle. I have seen Christians spitting with anger when faced with this notion of accountability to the GOD of the Universe. They are angry because they realise that there is no hidden secret before HIM thus putting a damper on their sinful lifestyle of worshipping a weaker GOD."

Mark, you make the mistake so many make when they claim to know the mind of God. You make the mistake made by those that claim to know who God will accept on judgement day. (You have nothing to do with that decision.) Stop and think about it for a moment. Really think about it. Are you so worthy that God speaks to you? Or are you just "insane" and unable to accept God for what he really is? Absolute knowledge would make you God and I am not about to believe in that.

Re: the 'proof' problem


He rejoiced at that? That seems almost kind of mean?

I don't know about your interpretation here, I think even many Christians would disagree with you.

I have always heard Jesus wants everyone to know God, not just a special group?

***

But take heart about the Proof thing.

Even though a lot of it can't be proved,

It can't be disproved either! (without a shadow of a doubt)

Some will get angry at me stating this: But no one here can disprove a lot of the Christian claims either.

You can believe whatever you friggin want to believe.

I can believe we are descended from aliens that landed here 2 million years ago, and we don't really have human bodies, it all just a confluence of light rays, blah blah blah and no one can disprove me. Its great.

Thats the beauty of these Debate & Religion forums. Can't disprove or prove most of it...

However, here you make yours sound like a snobby secret club or something?

"ooo they can't get it, they don't believe. I rejoice!" (they might end up in hell, but oh well) That doesn't sound very Christian?

Why be so selfish with God and make someone jump through special hoops to get with your God?

I don't know Extra Medium - if you read the book of Mark when Mark asked Jesus why he spoke in parables he essentially said 'To confuse others.'

Matthew has a different take on that line - but I think on that point the thread starter is within the scriptures.

I aint touchin the rest with a 10 footer.

TF

Re: the 'proof' problem
I am an atheist, and I don't remember having ever asked a believer to show me the proof of God's existence. I know it is impossible, since we are talking about an entity that, by definition, transcends all sensorial experience.

And you are wrong about the fact that atheists would prefer that God didn't exist. Immortality, eternal happiness ... who would want to reject that?

Do you really believe that atheist are so bad and full of "sins"? Are you forgetting that almost all the great crimes committed in the past and in the present, are the work of religious believers?
I never saw an atheist throw a bomb in a church or burn someone because he his a religious believer.

I agree with val.

I would love to find out that death is not the end, that a loving deity would take me into his heaven when I or my loved ones die.

It's just that I understand that wanting that is enough IN ITSELF for people to start believing it at the drop of a hat.

So I look at the sum total of verifiable facts on the subject of the true nature of the universe....but unfortunately 99.9999% of all the available information says...don't fool yourself, there's nothing out there.

That is not because I WANT to come to that conclusion, but rather, if I wish to be sure I'm not deliberately fooling myself, because I MUST.

In my experience, few religious people are capable of honesty, especially with themselves. They fear that the doubts they have stems from evil or weakness, when in fact it is common sense trying to wake them up.

Perhaps I do require proof, it would be unscientific not to.....but so far I haven't even come across a decent argument FOR the existence of any gods.

Proof denies faith the christian says, and here ends all science.

I see theists and scien-theists, both equally feverish in their futile attempts at understanding. The theist is dumbfounded, folds his hands and ignores the problem. The scien-theist solves the problem, but ends up with two new ones, wich he solves and gets still other questions.

In case you wondered, a scien-theist is a person who clings to his empirical method of critisism with the same zeal a theist embraces his dogma with.

What good is it to see light if you are blind to darkness, and vice versa.

Re: the 'proof' problem


That's not true, I hate my life. I don't grope for God because I see no reason to believe that he exists.

Re: the 'proof' problem


Wheres your "proof"

Re: the 'proof' problem


Actually, I'll be thrilled to bits.

Where do you get the idea people don't want gods to exist? What is their motivation?

Saddest of all, If it turns out I'm right, theists won't ever realise it...because when they die....they are dead....and they don't get to see how much time and energy they wasted on their one and only life!

Are we moving into a "meaning of life" thing here?

I'm intrigued by those who tell me that it's necessary to live a moral life because if I don't I shall end up in Hell. I choose to live a moral life because I sort of like the idea of doing so. I want peace in my life and the best way for me to achieve that is to live a moral life. I'm not a believer so neither Heaven nor Hell have any sway over me. I don't mind people believing what they will, I don't even mind their occasional proselytising at me or their occasional condemnation of me for being a non-believer. I honestly don't care. But I'm happy for them to believe if it works for them. To each their own.

goods,

I'm even more "intrigued" by those who tell me that their god made me moral, that I only made the choice to be moral because their god made me that way!