Quote by Mahatma Gandhi on Abstinence

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Abstinence is forgiveness only when there is power to punish; it is meaningless when it pretends to proceed from a helpless creature.

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[+4] - blatham - 04/30/2019[quote]If you aren't sincere about theological study, don't waste others' time vandalizing religious discussion with profanity.[/quote] Clearly you knowledge of Augustine is paltry. Shall we go on...

@Mslearning794,

Mslearning794 wrote:

Abstinence is forgiveness only when there is power to punish; it is meaningless when it pretends to proceed from a helpless creature.

As sinners, we have all earned capital punishment, yet for some reason God takes mercy on us, forgives, and offers eternal salvation; i.e. because of Christ.

What would such forgiveness mean if God had no right to punish us in the first place, i.e. because we were free of sin and didn't deserve it?

Quote:

Romans 6:23 (King James Version): For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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My fave dude on the subject of sin is Augustine.

He recognized that the original sin (Eve, apple, loss of innocence) was committed by two people and others who followed were innocent of that sin. As he recognized, that's kind of weird of god to drop all sorts of bad stuff on those others who hadn't done the thing. Menstrual bleeding, pain of childbirth, etc. just because Adam and Eve screwed up?

He had a terrific answer to this ethical/fairness/justice conundrum. The kids of Adam and Eve and down right through to us were infected with that original evil via the medium of sperm.

This bold idea offered up a solution (I guess you could call it) for another dilemma - why wasn't Jesus infected? He was born too. The answer was obvious to Augustine. Immaculate conception. None of that nasty sperm tainting Jesus.

As a side note, Augustine was really disgusted with himself because he kept getting boners.

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@blatham,

blatham wrote:

My fave dude on the subject of sin is Augustine.

He recognized that the original sin (Eve, apple, loss of innocence) was committed by two people and others who followed were innocent of that sin. As he recognized, that's kind of weird of god to drop all sorts of bad stuff on those others who hadn't done the thing. Menstrual bleeding, pain of childbirth, etc. just because Adam and Eve screwed up?

Are you trying to judge God here?

Look at the story of Cain and Abel. Cain was obedient but he became angry at Abel's disobedience; so the moral is that even when we resist sin, we are still tempted to judge sinners instead of "being our brother's keeper" and reproving them.

Quote:

He had a terrific answer to this ethical/fairness/justice conundrum. The kids of Adam and Eve and down right through to us were infected with that original evil via the medium of sperm.

This bold idea offered up a solution (I guess you could call it) for another dilemma - why wasn't Jesus infected? He was born too. The answer was obvious to Augustine. Immaculate conception. None of that nasty sperm tainting Jesus.

As a side note, Augustine was really disgusted with himself because he kept getting boners.

If you aren't sincere about theological study, don't waste others' time vandalizing religious discussion with profanity.

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@livinglava,

Quote:

If you aren't sincere about theological study, don't waste others' time vandalizing religious discussion with profanity.

Clearly you knowledge of Augustine is paltry. Shall we go on to Irenaeus' theodicy? Tertullian?

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@Mslearning794,

Google research reveals that that Gandhi quote relates to his controversial sex life which included testing himself by sleeping between two naked girls. Such a practice was said to relate to his guilt at being absent from his father's deathbed whilst satisfying his unusual sexual appetites.
The fact that a primary social function of 'religion' is to attempt to regulate our primate sexual behavior, tends to elevate the concept of 'abstinence' to the mythical realm of 'saintliness' in some religions, whereas polygamy has been a practical solution in others. So called 'theological study' tends to ignore such obvious societal regulatory function, and content itself with nebulous speculations concerning 'the fate of the soul' and the relationship between 'earthly suffering' and 'entry requirements for the afterlife'.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Google research reveals that that Gandhi quote relates to his controversial sex life which included testing himself by sleeping between two naked girls. Such a practice was said to relate to his guilt at being absent from his father's deathbed whilst satisfying his unusual sexual appetites.
The fact that a primary social function of 'religion' is to attempt to regulate our primate sexual behavior, tends to elevate the concept of 'abstinence' to the mythical realm of 'saintliness' in some religions, whereas polygamy has been a practical solution in others. So called 'theological study' tends to ignore such obvious societal regulatory function, and content itself with nebulous speculations concerning 'the fate of the soul' and the relationship between 'earthly suffering' and 'entry requirements for the afterlife'.

Abstinence and celibacy have direct spiritual effects, the same as resisting any other temptation. The spiritual effects are just greater because they are such fundamental, inalienable temptations, unlike nicotine for example.

There is no afterlife that's not a continuation of patterns you have established in the past and present. For the saved there is purgatory, while for those who cannot accept salvation, there can be only damnation.

All you have to do to long for abstinence and celibacy is to become mindful of how sexuality causes all sorts of drama and other spiritual taxation. Once you are completely aware of that, you would only want to use sexuality for the sake of procreation and not otherwise. It's simply not worth the repercussions.

Attachment/addiction to the pleasure and to serving the attachment/addiction of a partner are what make it seem worth it, but if you can abstain long enough to gain perspective over sexuality as something that you need not pursue, then there's no longer any reason to pursue it - unless you're trying to get pregnant that is.

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Next !

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@Mslearning794,

Abstinence is the antithesis of Indulgence.
To 'ABSTAIN' = 'INDULGE' Not.

Really?

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@mark noble,

That's a good point. It can mean abstaining from any indulgence, not just sexual indulgence.

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@livinglava,

...but is irrelevant with respect to the Gandhi quotation.

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@livinglava,

Once the ego is under control - 'Want/desire/indulgence' becomes easy to vanquish.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

...but is irrelevant with respect to the Gandhi quotation.

Why? Gandhi's quote refers to ahimsa, resistance against doing violence. All sin is violence, so resisting sin and resisting violence are different ways of saying what essentially amounts to the same thing.

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@livinglava,

That's not the 'good point' you replied to.
The personal 'religiosity' of Gandhi involving a convoluted connection between sexual abstinence, non - violence, and 'foregiveness', was sidelined by politicians at the time of independence, and even branded as 'dangerous'.
If you want to play with the words 'sin' and 'abstinence', I suggest a more fruitful arena would be to investigate paedophilia in the Catholic church.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

That's not the 'good point' you replied to.
The personal 'religiosity' of Gandhi involving a convoluted connection between sexual abstinence, non - violence, and 'foregiveness', was sidelined by politicians at the time of independence, and even branded as 'dangerous'.
If you want to play with the words 'sin' and 'abstinence', I suggest a more fruitful arena would be to investigate paedophilia in the Catholic church.

It's not word-play. These are clear philosophical concepts, if you bother to understand them.

Whatever politicians or anyone else may or may not have done during the time of independence or otherwise ultimately has no bearing on the truth or falsity of philosophical ideas.

Philosophical ideas mean what they mean, though they may get interpreted in various narrow ways according to specific social/cultural contexts.

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@livinglava,

Twaddle...or religious absolutism...I'll let you choose !
Meaning is totally subservient to context. Truth and falsity are themselves philosophical ideas which are subject to continuing debate. Look up 'theories of truth' if in doubt !

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Twaddle...or religious absolutism...I'll let you choose !
Meaning is totally subservient to context. Truth and falsity are themselves philosophical ideas which are subject to continuing debate. Look up 'theories of truth' if in doubt !

It's not that complex or meta. You just have to understand the philosophy at a general level.

Sin and harm are synonymous. They are also inevitable aspects of the world. Resisting/abstaining from them is the purpose of human self-discipline, which is the object of religion.

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@livinglava,

Ah the wonders of word magic! I'm pleased to be able to give you a vehicle for self reinforcement of your religiosity.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Ah the wonders of word magic! I'm pleased to be able to give you a vehicle for self reinforcement of your religiosity.

Just because you don't understand the words/philosophy doesn't mean they are nothing more than word magic.

Atheism's dead end is that it isn't ultimately capable of understanding the thing it rejects.

It's like people who don't understand climate/science rejecting climate science by claiming it's nothing more than ideological manipulation.

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@livinglava,

Rubbish. Its nothing like that. If you are stupid enough to to elevate your parochial version of religiosity to the status of a universal scientific paradigm that's your problem! As for that nonsense about 'atheist's lack of understanding' ,is that your attempt at playing the Jesus role with 'forgive them O Lord because they know not what they do' ? Laughing

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Quote by Mahatma Gandhi on Abstinence

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