Plato's theory of forms

Reply to Plato: I seen horses, I seen cows I haint never yet seen horsiness nor that there bovinity neither.

thought i posted a reply, but must have forgotten to click the button. you'll probably get more hits if you look up Plato's *Ideas* rather than forms.

i'm extremely fond of Plato, but not necessarily the Republic. i believe he was an ardent admirer of Sparta, the principal rival of Athens, and he became disenchanted with Athenian democracy when it executed his beloved mentor Socrates. Sparta was way too oligarchic & militaristic to suit me; it even enslaved many of its own citizens, known as the Helots.

PQ:

Agreed on both accounts of Plato.

Here is an example of Plato's reasoning behing the Forms. If you have two identicle pencils in front of you - both of them are particular pencils - yet they both are equal.

Yet - where did this concept of equal come from. It could not have come from the pencils because they have nothing to do with 'equalness'. They are wood and rubber and what not - so thier must be something that causes you to percieve equality.

Plato surmised that it is the 'form' of equalness that you are seeing when you precieve the pencils. This carries over to other things - when you see a beautifull man and a beatiful painting it is not beauty itself that you are seeing and in fact both of these particular objects are beautiful in different ways. But what do they have in common? Beauty - not the particular of beauty but the essence of beauty itself is what is causing them to be beautiful and for you to see beauty when you see those particulars.

You cannot see the forms because you yourself are a particular. You are made of things and thus are not the essence of you. But your soul can see the forms, escpecially when it is realeased from the body - and can see the forms. Your soul is the form of you and the body is the particular of you.

That is why Plato said that Philosophy wsa training for dying. So in answer to Dyslexia's quip Plato might respond that it is your particulars, your body, that is resricting you from accessing the pure realm of forms. Free your sould form your body and you could purely access the forms.

Does that help?

TTF

TTF, unless i'm wrong, Plato himself describes his scheme elegantly with his allegory of the cave. i'm also wondering if there has been any speculation of a realm beyond forms, such that forms themselves are but instances of deeper essence? a grand unified theory of forms one could say.

the Republic notwithstanding, anybody who could write stuff like this, from Parmenides, is ok by me:

whether the one is or is not, the one and the others in relation to themselves and to each other all in every way are and are not and appear and do not appear.

ttf

You made a remarkable summary of Plato's theory of Forms.

About Dyslexia reply: it is the same that Anthistenes gave to Plato("I see a table but I don't see any "tableness"). Plato answered: because you can only see with the eyes of your body, not with those of your soul.

I always felt fascinated with Plato, but I think Anthistenes (and Dyslexia) are right. It is, in my opinion, a problem of definition. Plato would say that we see a beautiful woman, a beautiful statue, because the particular woman and statue "participate" of the the idea of Beauty.
If we reject any real meaning in the word Beauty, and only accept the existence of beautiful things part of the problem is solved. I know Plato would reply: how can you say that this woman is beautiful if there is no meaning for Beauty?
There is only one possible answer: the meaning of "this woman is beautiful" has to do with my senses, my feelings, my physical interaction with the world. It is in my sensible experience.

Val:

I tend to agree. It comes back down to that wonderful painting by Raphael 'The Academy'. Where we see Plato and Aristotle in the center. Plato is pointing up - Aristotle is pointing level. THis symbolyzes where both think knowledge comes from. The world - or outside the world.

Plato simply believes that information comes from outside the perceptable world. This, in my opinion well somes up most theism.

Thanks for the compliment by the way. I teach Into to Phil (and others) for a living. I hope I am getting better at it.

Yitwal:

I agree that Plato says it better himself. I think, though, that when people read the cave - the allegory looses its epistemological bite at times. I think his concept of equality or his allegory of the slave boy is good - but not found in the Republic. The Meno is where you have to look for that.

Everyone:

Pop quiz hotshots! Plato was not Plato's nickname - what was his real name? No Googleing it - be fair!

TTF

ttf



I think it was Aristocles - this, in portuguese, I don't know how it is in english. But I am not sure.
The name Plato, and here I am sure, had to do with the fact that he had large shoulders.

TTF, i looked something up on Plato, not to cheat, mind you, but curious about his insistence on studying mathematics. turns out, he didn't do so in the abstract, but also applied them to the heavens, postulating--incorrectly--that heavenly bodies move in perfect circles. anyway, thought it was interesting that Plato's gesture in Rafael's painting might not be merely rhetorical.

of course, he was quite right in his intuition that the heavens are governed by mathematical laws. Einstein's general theory of relativity predicting an expanding universe many decades before it could be confirmed--a prediction he himself rejected, ironically--is a spectacular confirmation of Plato's intuition, or lucky guess, whichever it may be.

The absurd vanity of metaphysicians who like to imagine that they create the world by thinking about it.

VAL WINS!

Yeah - Val - he was a wrestler and had very broad shoulders. In fact plato means broad shouldered.


Yitwal. Remember over his school is said "Only those who have studied geometry may enter."

He was influenced (as was most of the Greek world) by Pythagoras and his cult.

TTF

Wow, I've never noticed this!

Reading this thread about forms and particulars brings to mind the ancient philosophy of hinduism. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Plato had ties to the east. Maybe he travelled.

Cyracuz:

The more you look into Plato's basic philosophies - the more you see religion. This is why Augustine co-opted him to explain Christianity.

Ofcourse - Aquinas co-opted Aristotle to explain Christianity as well - so...

Ray -

Glad I could give you a little kick. Look around the painting - you will see a BUNCH of philosophers. Socrates, Epicurus, and others form much later in history.

(I say painting - I think it is a Fresco to be clear)

If you look VERY close on Plato and Aristotle you will see they are carrying books and both have titles on them. Interesting how indepth Raphael knew his subjects.

TTF

TTF- This is really interesting. I'm going to look at this painting again for a long time.

I wonder if Plato is carrying the Republic and Socrates his Des Animas or Nichomachean Ethics...

Start here Ray:

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/SchoolAthens.htm

Not a bad place to start. Raphael even painted himself in.

Glad I could amuse.

TTF

Thanks TTF. I wonder why Epictetus isn't there...

thanks people! i understand more now.
I have a few queries though.

Two pencils are equal, and so there is something about them that makes us percieve equality. so is this part of their form right?
so does the form actually exist? because another explanation i have heard, is that there are lots of chairs, yet there is only one true chair, the rest are just copies of chairs. thats why he wanted to cencor art in the republic, cos he thought it distanced people from reality.

also, does say, the idea of beauty really count as a form? surely that is a matter of opinion, not a fact.

in reply to the hindu thing.
'The veil of maya' is supposed to be the veil that we open to see actual reality. It is a hindu idea but plato believed it too i think.

Yes the form of equlity to Plato does exist - and when you are in your form (your soul) you will be able to apprehend it.

Plato wanted to sensor art because he thought it drew humans away from the forms. They were images of real things and thus lower on the divided line (have you been exposed to that?) than perceptables and forms.

Beauty is most certainly a form. In fact it is a higher form because the form of chairs or pencils would be the perfect, and thus most beatiful chair or pencil. All forms participate in the form of beauty because they, being perfect, are all beautiful.

The reason you think that it is a matter of opinion is because Plato believed in the compressence of opposites when it came to particular things.

Let me give the example this way. Let's assume you are 5'5" and next to me (I am 6'5") you are very short and I am very tall. Then Shaq stands next to both of us (he is 7'1") and it makes me appear very short. But next to BOTH of you I am both short and tall. That is impossible - how can I be both short and tall at the same time. It is not a matter of opinion but a matter of the essence of the particular. It's essense is constantly in flux and thus in a compressense of opposites.

Thus, I (being a particular) am both short and tall and Jessica Simpson is both beatiful (to some) and ugly (to others). This 'opinion' is merely knowledge of particulars - for when we both apprehended the form of beauty - neither could deny it was beautiful.

TTF

p.s I could send you my lecture notes that sum up Plato. It is about a 45 slide Power Point lecture - but has lots of pictures and stuff. Drop me a PM if interested.