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PROBABILITY, GOD, EVOLUTION, AND MY LOGIC PROFESSOR

 
 
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2005 07:15 pm
As is often the case, my logic class took a turn for the worse this evening, as my professor used the existence of God and the validity of evolution as examples when discussing probability.

Using Bayes's Theorem, the class watched as the probability of God existing rose from 20% to 72% after considering the evidence of "cosmic harmony"; effectively the traditional argument from design.

This is all fine. The theorem's effectiveness is determined by what probability is initially supplied; e.g. in this case, we said the odds were 4 to 1 against the existence of God. We could have just as easily said 5000 to 1 against, or 2 to 1 in favor, it doesn't matter. The point is, this line of discussion inevitably leads to my professor getting started on Darwinism v. ID Theory.

I mind my own business for some time as other students ask their usual "I've never read anything about this" sort of questions, until eventually my prof. makes the claim that the gaps in the fossil record suggest intelligent design.

Being the genius philosopher I am, I ask him simply, "And where do you get that from?" I mean of course that the inclusion of the intelligent creator hypothesis seems to me to just come out of nowhere; i.e. how does one get from "gap in the fossil record" to "Darwinian evolution is improbable" to "intelligent creator"? The way I see it, what he just said is: "there are gaps in the fossil record, therefore ID theory is correct," which is friggin' ridiculous - especially for one who holds a PhD in philosophy. In other words, it's a very simple and honest question.

What does he hit me with? He says, "where do we get any of our theories?" and sites as an example that the world was created five minutes ago, with our memories in tact.

This was, of course, precisely my point: the intelligent design hypothesis is a conjecture exactly like the one he just gave.

But this is lost on him, and that's the only answer to my question I get.

Moments later, he brings up that the chances of intelligent life existing without the aid of an intelligent designer are small. (Granting the odds of intelligent life emerging by chance is like 10 to the 40th power or something ridiculous.)

I say: "Can't you say that about everything? I mean, the 'odds' of any single event are just as poor if we include enough factors into the equation. For example, what are the 'odds' that each member of this class would be here, at this moment, at this school, with this weather, combined with the fact the Tigers lost yesterday, now combined with all the things that had to happen to get us all into this classroom at this moment: all of our parents had to meet, their parents had to meet, etc. etc. etc. ... had even one of these things not happened, this class as it currently is ceases to exist. The odds of our being here are, like ... 10 to the 40th power!

I found this a clear and concise example of what my issue with his position was. This is lost on him as well, and he proceeds to talk down to me for the next few minutes about how improbable intelligent life is (which, by the way, is a red herring: I never disputed whether life was improbable or not).

I don't exactly have a "point," nor do I have much of an idea of what direction I intend this thread to go. All comments welcome (pro and con); I just needed to get this off my chest.

Confused Cheers.

[Edit: Removed some redundant material.]
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,717 • Replies: 30
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watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2005 08:02 pm
Laughing

Your professor is stupid. Very Happy

What more can I say?
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2005 08:03 pm
Um.... only seven more weeks till you never have to listen to his drivel again.

Joe(odd feeling, you're in a class, but you seem to have a better grasp of reality than the professor.) Nation
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2005 08:27 pm
If intelligent life had never evolved, then there would be no one around to calculate the odds against intelligent life evolving....
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2005 09:07 pm
man, i've gotta call my bookie...
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 01:13 am
Quote:
Moments later, he brings up that the chances of intelligent life existing without the aid of an intelligent designer are small. (Granting the odds of intelligent life emerging by chance is like 10 to the 40th power or something ridiculous.)


Ergo ID must be incorrect as the designer cold not possibly be intelligent. :wink: (much like your teacher)

Oh, and creationist "probability of abiogenesis" equations are always bogus.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 01:57 am
You've learned a valuable lesson; a degree is often unrelated to the intellectual achievement of its possesor.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 06:09 am
Sounds to me your professor is taking money from some creationists. It also sounds as if you would do well not to listen to him.
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patiodog
 
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Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 06:40 am
timberlandko wrote:
You've learned a valuable lesson; a degree is often unrelated to the intellectual achievement of its possesor.


deja vu...
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Cyracuz
 
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Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 07:02 am
The problem with professors is their education. To a man with many years of education on a subject it is unthinkable that any person without the same education can deliver anything of interest to the subject. He will not listen because your incompetence is predetermined in his little world.

This has to do with ego. He cannot admit that you, with no education, can equal him, because he will at the same time admit that he has wasted years on absolutely nothing, or that his intellect is inferior to yours.

The process of education can sometimes be damaging to the ability to think clearly. Society is founded on many misconceptions, and there are those whos interests are to maintain these misconceptions. Thus we have a system of education that indoctrinates young minds to it's way of thinking, thereby reducing the risk that someone might see true.

If you have a paper that says you've studied this and that here and there, there is one thing more important that paper tells people than that you're educated. It tells them you are safe. Indoctrinated and incapable of thinking in new ways. Brainwashed by our forefathers.
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farmerman
 
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Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 07:24 am
I hope hes just noodging you into a plane of deeper thought. He could be role playing , just waiting for you (plural) to come up with some deeper questions that pin him to a corner.

I love taking stupid positions and defending the hell out of them , just to be pinned down by logical thinking.
A thought

What is the" engine" of Intelligent design when, even with gaps in the fossil record, we can easily see that most of the orders of plants and animals arose in vastly different periods throughout geologic time?

I can easily come up with a couple of engines that drive evolution (climate, geography, total environmnetal pressures, cataclysmic events), but I cant make one up for Intelligent design.
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Cyracuz
 
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Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 07:35 am
You don't need to make up one for intelligent design. What about primates? Engines for inelligent design, supported by the engines you mentioned.

Good point about the man playing a fool. Didn't think about that. But is that consistent with ridiculing your students when they try?
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goodfielder
 
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Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 07:44 am
I've taught adults and some adolescents on a full time and part time basis for many years. Unless this bloke really pulls a rabbit out of the hat he has just showed himself up to be a very poor teacher indeed.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 08:10 am
Quote:
You don't need to make up one for intelligent design. What about primates? Engines for inelligent design, supported by the engines you mentioned

You do if you are trying to utilize the same science base upon which to refute that which you choose to refute. If you suddenly change the basis of logic then the argument is made that his position is totally arbitrary .Since INTELLIGENT DESIGN, is an appeal , via science for all the "order" seen in the living world, it , by definition must have an engine, otherwise its proving that it is just Creationism with a lab coat.Intelligent Design is in an awfully precarious spot. Thats why I think your instructor is just messing with you, hoping that youll see the disconnect in theID thought process.




.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 08:19 am
farmer wrote:
Quote:
I can easily come up with a couple of engines that drive evolution (climate, geography, total environmnetal pressures, cataclysmic events), but I cant make one up for Intelligent design.


Face it. You just aren't intelligent enough to understand the engines of intelligent design. No one is.

The holes in intelligent design just mean we haven't found the answers yet. The holes in the fossil record mean those creatures never existed.

Logic is merely a creation of small minds. A great mind just changes facts to fit his conclusion.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 08:26 am
Thinking about evolution it struck me that if that fantastc process had made a sneeze last,say,ten seconds,there would be no cars and no roads.Now isn't that clever of evolution to have forseen our technological process and prepared us for it.
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spendius
 
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Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 08:29 am
farmerman has admitted taking up stupid positions which is itself a stupid position.How can one defend a stupid position when it is by definition indefensible.
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 08:31 am
spendius wrote:
Thinking about evolution it struck me that if that fantastc process had made a sneeze last,say,ten seconds,there would be no cars and no roads.Now isn't that clever of evolution to have forseen our technological process and prepared us for it.


We do what we can.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 09:37 am
parados Very Happy

Its a bitch to always require the answers to questions that havent been asked yet. We always liken such inquiry to a murder scene. All we have is evidence from which conclusions are made (hopefully by dispassionate logic
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farmerman
 
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Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 09:39 am
spendius, you make my case quite well, thank you.
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