Is the Human Race on a Suicide Mission?

While I agree with EB about the Brazilian forests being clear cut, some perspective needs to be introduced here. In the second world war, Brazil sent a division to operate with the UN in Italy. Although supported by the western allies, that still meant that 30,000 to 40,000 Brazilians, mostly young men, served with the UN, and saw first hand the awesome military machine which was the UN in Europe. Those young men went back to Brazil and began building the new, modern Brazil. The new national capital was founded at Brazilia in 1960. To fuel the new economy, they began clear-cutting the rain forests. The propaganda mills from all sides have been working overtime ever since that effort bega, almost 70 years ago. For the right, this means jobs and prosperity for everyone (allegedly). For the left, the issue is the poor of Brazil left behind in the new Brazil. Brazilia has the highest per capita income of any city in Latin America--something both sides can milk. They're not the only ones, though. Organizations like the Nature Conservancy, Friends of the Earth and the Sierra Club get into the act to decry the destruction of the rain forests. Even vegans, some of the most aggressive propagandists these days, get into the act. They claim that the rain forests are cut down in order to grow soybeans as animal feed--those vile carnivores at work once again.

As usual, the truth is hidden behind all the ranting propagandists. Brazil certain has been cutting down the rain forests, and has been since at least the late 1950s. The pace has, however, been accelerating since the 1970s. The hard woods from the rain forests feed the insatiable maw of Europe, and of Japan. An American capitalist took advantage of this to build a cellulose factory deep in the rain forests in the late 1970s. (Story from the Washington Post, March, 1978. When the forests are clear-cut, they are usually used for farm land (in the story above, new, quick-growing trees were being planted). Most of the nutrients in a rain forest are in the canopy and the understory of the trees, so the soil left behind is very poor, and is exhausted quickly. Thereafter, it is used for grazing land. The vegans will tell you the soybeans (and it is a crop very destructive of the environment) are grown for animal feed. That's bullsh*t. The soybeans are grown for vegetable oil, which goes into all manner of products. Brazil is the number one competitor with the U.S. in soybean production. After the beans are pressed for the oil, the residue is sold as animal feed. Make no mistake, though, the soybeans were grown for vegetable oil--selling the residue is just maximizing profits. I usually ask the vegans if they eat tofu--some of them don't even know it's made from soybeans.

Brazil has been in high gear for the development of the rain forests for at least 50 years. Everybody has got a finger in that propaganda pie.

It's possible a few level heads may slow down the new president's plans, but he seems to be the type who will overrule their efforts.

What's your opinion on China and India?

That I never saw any disinformation campaign about climate change being a 'hoax' blahblahblah coming from them. They never denied the science of climate change, and to my knowledge never sabotaged an international effort to curb GHG emissions.

In terms of the amount of CO2 they pump in the atmosphere, China is a big worry. In contrast, India's share of emissions is pretty small. This because China is now the world's manufacturer, while Indian industry is still underdeveloped.

Besides the badly it reflects on the USA — so much for global leadership and responsibility.

Most soybeans are grown for animal feed. Yes, humans can eat soy as tofu, etc. and if all soy was used as human feed instead of animal feed, the ratio of soy grown per capita humans would be a lot lower.

Basically, you could sum up the total population of humans and livestock being fed by agricultural land and then figure out how many less acres of land were needed for agriculture if all the animals raised for meat were never born and the ground used to feed them was used to feed humans instead.

That too.

Livestock are either raised in feed lots, or grazed on land which is too marginal for ordinary, industrial scale agriculture. People are not stupid enough to waste prime farm land grazing livestock.

I guess you've drunk the vegan kool-aid, huh?

I already acknowledged that soybean meal was used to feed livestock, but your narrative here is bullshit. From the Michigan State University Extension Service:



As I said, they press the soybeans for the oil, which is overwhelmingly for human consumption, and the residue is used for animal feed.

the big growth area in soybeans isnt really in the rainforest areas, Its in the Cerrados of central and SW central Brazil, like Mato Grosso and Mato Grosso du Sol. These are shitty acidic soil dry savannahs that have spotty forest stands (think about a really hot Iowa). The soil needs heavy amendment cause its got pH's near 5! (like a dilute vinegar)

We used to advise a Mato Grosso Cerrado management organization on soil amendment and our soil guys revealed that it costs a huge amount to grow beans in the areas that opened in the late 80's. SOO, they just do double cropping with a lot of trans genic "short season" varieties that were developed by Cargill for chicken McNugget production in the cotton lands of Southern US that became "bean lands" in the 1960's nd as GM took over the brazilian land boom opened.
So , in a big circle, Brzil has taken and developed a market to grow chicken parts and beef (fed mostly by in- country baked and stored soy from 2 crops a yer on rather meager /acre production(all based on Cargills help to McDonald chicken mcnuggets) .All the while absorbing costs for super-chemical- fertilizers and large production/storage costs. They even have to add lotsa tilth by fibre.(They still dont do much cover cropping or no-till for tilth conservation )

The real problems (I hve no data other than viewing it in the field, The real de forested lands were just lumbered out for the lumber and there were no original plans (TILL PALM OIL was discovered)
Now youll see huge hectar plots of palm forests that will be challenging Indonsia and Phillipines at Palm oil production.
BUT, you dont need to look far to see the footprints of Cargill and Dupont Ag Chem and Bayer.

Im a tree hugger but I recognize that farm economics isnt to make LESS money per acre. The market for most of Brazil's soy is actually IN BRAZIL, serving the meat production. The amount that makes it to the international markets is based on the fact that Brazil can always be counted on to devalue its currency an since Brazil wisely look at storgae of the crop as a key ingredient to production, they lead the world on "storage sciences" (Most northern countries have huge wastes due to spoilage after roasting)

I bow to your superior knowledge of contemporary Brazilian agriculture. My point, however, remains the same. They have been cutting down forests for more than 50 years now in order to expand their revenues, and to make themselves the richest, most powerful nation in Latin America.

I agree , and theyve also coupled that with devalued currency several times to make their hardwoods and ag products even more saleable. This has made Brazil an anomaly where the significant lower classes at about 30+% are like those in India, starving yet invisible. de Lula had done a pretty good job reducing the overall poverty and increasing vaccination and keeping kids in chool with promised payments but Rio still has this huge callous of poverty so that the city hs this stench of flowers , burning wood n stench oh poverty.

Crime and corruption till messes with good programs down there. Course, one could say the slums of Philly look awful like a favela hanging onto Brazils big cities.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/earths-ozone-layer-is-healing-says-un/
WASHINGTON — Earth’s protective ozone layer is finally healing from damage caused by aerosol sprays and coolants, a new United Nations report said.

The ozone layer had been thinning since the late 1970s. Scientist raised the alarm and ozone-depleting chemicals were phased out worldwide.

As a result, the upper ozone layer above the Northern Hemisphere should be completely repaired in the 2030s and the gaping Antarctic ozone hole should disappear in the 2060s, according to a scientific assessment released Monday at a conference in Quito, Ecuador. The Southern Hemisphere lags a bit and its ozone layer should be healed by mid-century.

“It’s really good news,” said report co-chairman Paul Newman, chief Earth scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center. “If ozone-depleting substances had continued to increase, we would have seen huge effects. We stopped that.”

Which illustrates what we can achieved when all nations work together based on sound scientific advice...

That was 30 years ago. What else have they done for us?

Who are 'they'?

And who are 'us'?

For that matter, who are whom?