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Is the Human Race on a Suicide Mission?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2018 05:04 am
@farmerman,
I also have mag ads Ive used in classes re oil refining. When the entire name tetraethyl lead, becam TEL, and then was called "ETHYL" , it was all done to "camouflage" the fact that we were being fed some MFR bullshit to go out and use a deadly substance that actually caused the factory workers at the Wilmington Del TEL plant to go crazy on the job and die within a few years of being admitted to the Chem WOrkers Union.

Youre right this was one of, if not THE biggest industrial poisoning of people in this country just to serve a small bunch of stockholders.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2018 07:09 am
Yeah, and LL wants to suggest some kind of whacky self-regulatory regime. The Ethyl Corporation boys love **** like that. More than 70 years of poisoning the environment, and never an admission of fault, or even that lead is poisonous.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2018 07:58 am
@Setanta,
the funny thing (funny-strange) is the guy, a chemist named Midgeley , developed the TEL industry by selling it to GM , also, (like 20 yars later), actually created chloroflourocarbon (A) (we call it freon) and started another hassle with that.

Yep, industry has always had our health and safety in mind as they ignored it.


Ya know, whenever I brought up my "without regs industry would never do the right thing". I always expect the Right wingers to push back but not so.

livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 06:58 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

the funny thing (funny-strange) is the guy, a chemist named Midgeley , developed the TEL industry by selling it to GM , also, (like 20 yars later), actually created chloroflourocarbon (A) (we call it freon) and started another hassle with that.

Yep, industry has always had our health and safety in mind as they ignored it.


Ya know, whenever I brought up my "without regs industry would never do the right thing". I always expect the Right wingers to push back but not so.

You should look at the bigger picture. Every time some regulations clean up the machines a little more, they give a false sense of hope that there is some future possible where liberal use of industrial power won't cause harm. That is an impossible fantasy.

Industrial power is simply too intense for Earth's biosphere. Its use has to be minimized and eliminated wherever possible and replaced with more natural forms of power, such as human and animal labor. This doesn't mean that technology is a bad thing. Electronics and IT have a comparatively small footprint and make it possible to widely distribute information to facilitate high quality lifestyles despite people having an otherwise minimalized industrial footprint.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 08:42 am
@livinglava,
Okay so you don't believe in government-sponsored action, but you believe in individual action. I and others may disagree but you are entitled to your opinion.

The question I would want to ask you then is: What have you done to reduce your carbon footprint, in application of your belief that only individual action can work?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 09:28 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
Electronics and IT have a comparatively small footprint
cows an chickens, not so much. There aint enough room for verybody living the agrarian life as you seem to be drifting towards.

No matter what you say, absent a huge population reducing cataclysm, war, or disease, we will always rely on supply lines.


livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 03:42 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Okay so you don't believe in government-sponsored action, but you believe in individual action. I and others may disagree but you are entitled to your opinion.

I wouldn't say I don't believe in government at all. I just think people should start looking at how government fits into the bigger picture of things instead of seeing it as an automatic go-to when the private sector fails to act responsibly, which it always fails to do.

Quote:

The question I would want to ask you then is: What have you done to reduce your carbon footprint, in application of your belief that only individual action can work?

Driving, heating, and cooling are the biggest changes you can make as a consumer. All the personal motor-vehicles on the roads create a need for so much pavement for driving and parking. Driving is the main obstacle to reforestation of human-inhabited areas. Heating and cooling are necessary in certain places and for certain people with certain health conditions, but if they were limited to certain areas of buildings with super insulation, they would use far less energy. Think of all those big houses, stores, air-ports, office buildings, etc. that are filled with climate-controlled air, which could just be better ventilated w/ fans in summer and people keep their coats on in winter.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 03:50 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
Electronics and IT have a comparatively small footprint
cows an chickens, not so much. There aint enough room for verybody living the agrarian life as you seem to be drifting towards.

I don't follow your logic here. Why is an agrarian lifestyle a necessary extension of what I said?

Quote:
No matter what you say, absent a huge population reducing cataclysm, war, or disease, we will always rely on supply lines.

Sure, but the supply chains for bicycles and bike infrastructure are so much more efficient than for cars and trucks.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 04:07 pm
@livinglava,
But the question was: "What have you done personally to reduce your carbon footprint?"
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 04:27 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

But the question was: "What have you done personally to reduce your carbon footprint?"

Yes, but that's a dumb question. The suicide (or sustainability) of the Human Race isn't hinging on me as an individual. In fact, huge numbers of people could adopt sustainable behaviors and lifestyles and that would still not prevent others from suiciding the human race as a whole by failing to reform.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 05:22 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Why is an agrarian lifestyle a necessary extension of what I said?
because wherever a production and xchange based world exists as "first world" econ., then supply lines of raw materials, parts, and final products will define the entire planet and, so far, a Carbon reduction of less than 15% is projected.

how do we achieve mass part production with low carbon footprint.

AND BTW, wht are you doing about your own carbon footprint is a very very good query . Youve been preaching about reduction of govts role and individual rsponsibility, so when you are aked about your own contributions, you call folks names.


I see
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 05:25 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Sure, but the supply chains for bicycles and bike infrastructure are so much more efficient than for cars and trucks.
What does a supply line for bike chins look like? so we ship one chain at a time by pack mule? Your lifestyle approaches agrarian rural village (like my on present lifestyle).

PS, we rely on wood fuel at the agrarian/ rural village level.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 05:36 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

how do we achieve mass part production with low carbon footprint.

Take bicycles, scooters, etc. instead of cars, for example. They use much less parts and much smaller/simpler parts than cars and trucks. So that means less factories producing all those parts, less warehouses storing and shipping them, less commercial traffic, etc.

Workers/unions are terrified of this prospect because they want all those jobs working in and on all those factories and supply chains. That is the biggest problem, really; i.e. that human workers have grown accustomed to power-assisted work activities that don't require much physical labor to achieve big effects.

That's really the core purpose of industrialism, if you think about it. Still, there's another aspect of industrialism that is good, which is the ability to apply scientific knowledge to achieve things in a very efficient way. It's this second aspect that makes it possible to have a climate-friendly industrial/consumer economy with perks like electronic gadgets and super aerogel insulation that uses precious little energy to run things.

Quote:
AND BTW, wht are you doing about your own carbon footprint is a very very good query . Youve been preaching about reduction of govts role and individual rsponsibility, so when you are aked about your own contributions, you call folks names.

It's dumb to turn this into a discussion about my personal actions. Regardless of what I do or don't do as an individual, it's what everyone else does that matters. Let's say I am very good at reducing my footprint, then critics will just call me extreme and say other people don't want to live like that. If I say I do nothing or very little to reduce my footprint, then they'll just say my words are empty. Either way it is a pointless diversion into personal information.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2018 08:40 pm
LL, you constantly deal in fallacies and facile idiocies. To say that anyone--other than you--expects regulation to solve all of societies' problems is a straw man fallacy. No one here has said that. Because you cannot wave a magic regulatory wand and solve all problems is no reason to abandon the effort to rein in corporate greed and irresponsibility. Given that we live in a world addicted to personal comfort and convenience, and therefore a prey to greedy and irresponsible capitalists, regulation and regulatory agencies are an absolute necessity to at least quash the worst effects of irresponsible greed. Basically, all you say is "Oh well, we can't fix everything, so we shouldn't try to fix anything."

It would be refreshing to see you post without puking up some confused and phony libertarian ideology. I don't expect, however, to see that.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2018 02:11 am
@livinglava,
You mean our children are gona fry, drawn and suffocate, but it's none of your business nor should it be your government's problem. Nothing can be done anyway. We should all just get used to the idea and go quietly into the night.

I guess that's useful, in the sense that it cynically articulates the covert US position on this matter since George W Bush: "Après moi le déluge".
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2018 04:47 am
@livinglava,
so where we gonna make all these "bike parts" for an expected 8 Billion people??
And are we going to ship em back and forth by bicycle?

Youre a hoot.

Quote:
Either way it is a pointless diversion into personal information.
only in your mind. Ive been discussing my own conversions for my small farm . I like to hear IDEAS and have benefitted from severl people sharing theirs. YOU are the first one who seems to be making a "pharisee argument" about these discussions .(Which is why I personally feel that much of your own "Shared" visions are quite naive). My feeling is that you have little real experience in the subject an have consequently, not really thought it out too clearly.
Youre the barber shop "expert" who comments on the barbers "stuffed owl"

BTW, fossil fuel fired "scooters" are actually more polluting than are larger modern engines.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2018 04:56 am
@farmerman,
Its sad that the US is in the middle of one of its cyclic "gilded age" periods where all science and ecology is denied . Its especially sad that our executive officer is a solid denialist schmuck who is doing damage to a better industrial future where "clean industry" is partner to profitability. It takes regulations and applied research, not ridiculous "return to the caves"
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2018 05:28 am
That was awkward — at world’s biggest climate conference, U.S. promotes fossil fuels
Protesters disrupt U.S. panel promoting fossil fuels at U.N. climate talks
More than a dozen protestors interrupted a U.S. pro-fossil fuel event on the sidelines of the U.N. climate change talks on Dec.10. in Poland. (Reuters)

By Griff Witte and Brady Dennis December 10 at 6:05 PM

KATOWICE, Poland — President Trump’s top White House adviser on energy and climate stood before the crowd of some 200 people on Monday and tried to burnish the image of coal, the fossil fuel that powered the industrial revolution — and is now a major culprit behind the climate crisis world leaders are meeting here to address.

“We strongly believe that no country should have to sacrifice economic prosperity or energy security in pursuit of environmental sustainability,” said Wells Griffith, Trump’s adviser.

Mocking laughter echoed through the conference room. A woman yelled, “These false solutions are a joke!” And dozens of people erupted into chants of protest.

The protest was a piece of theater, and so too was the United States’ public embrace of coal and other dirty fuels at an event otherwise dedicated to saving the world from the catastrophic effects of climate change.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2018 05:31 am
@Olivier5,
I understood that many US states had sent thir own delegates to show solidarity with the Accords. Basically, Trump speaks for Trump, not America. e have to ait 2 more years so we can get rid of him in an orderly fashion.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2018 07:01 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

LL, you constantly deal in fallacies and facile idiocies. To say that anyone--other than you--expects regulation to solve all of societies' problems is a straw man fallacy. No one here has said that.

It is implicit in the criticism of private industry's failure to sufficiently self-regulate.

Quote:
Because you cannot wave a magic regulatory wand and solve all problems is no reason to abandon the effort to rein in corporate greed and irresponsibility.

I never said it was, but government/socialism doesn't seek to rein it in. They seek to tax it and thus spread the bounty and privilege it produces. B Obama has stated this clearly on many occasions.

Quote:
Given that we live in a world addicted to personal comfort and convenience, and therefore a prey to greedy and irresponsible capitalists, regulation and regulatory agencies are an absolute necessity to at least quash the worst effects of irresponsible greed. Basically, all you say is "Oh well, we can't fix everything, so we shouldn't try to fix anything."

Not at all. I am just trying to get more sophisticated in seeing the deeper problems and look for more realistic solutions, even where those seem superficially more difficult to achieve; such as fixing the culture from the ground up at the level of individual culture.

Quote:
It would be refreshing to see you post without puking up some confused and phony libertarian ideology. I don't expect, however, to see that.

I'm not libertarian. You don't understand me and you don't actually understand much too well, it seems; hence the aggression in most of your posts.
0 Replies
 
 

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