11
   

Is the Human Race on a Suicide Mission?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2018 07:07 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
They only allow themselves to be regulated to the extent they are willing to change. If they don't want to change, they will thwart regulation in one way or the other. Business and government are in cahoots, not in conflict.
So without regulations you feel that industries will do "Whats right"??
You take happy pills dont you??

Name one industry that has not harmed health, environment, land or water absent any regulations??


Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2018 01:25 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
Who can stop them?

A thermonuclear war?
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2018 07:19 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Name one industry that has not harmed health, environment, land or water absent any regulations??

The point is they are involved in the legislative, judicial, and regulatory processes in such a way that allows them leeway to continue to do harm while pretending to be under control.

It is like when the government tried to restrict highway speeds to 55mph and they were eventually manipulated to raise them. Car crashes and driving/infrastructure generally are a huge cause of harm, both environmental and human/social; but still the automotive industries and driving are only regulated in such a way that more business is facilitated by giving the public a superficial sense that regulation is preventing things from being even worse.

Cultural perceptions are relative. The government can produce meager regulatory measures that provide a false sense of security, and that in itself helps people accept otherwise detrimental practices. It's like giving someone a sedative and a pep talk before screwing them over. Government is the opium of the people.

Whenever government improves regulation, private lawyers, lobbyists, etc. just go to work finding loopholes and devising strategies to tweak the laws and otherwise make them work to serve their interests.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2018 04:02 am
https://www.courrierinternational.com/sites/ci_master/files/styles/image_original_765/public/assets/images/arend_2018-11-28-2423.jpg
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2018 08:49 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:

The point is they are involved in the legislative, judicial, and regulatory processes in such a way that allows them leeway to continue to do harm while pretending to be under control.



I sorta just asked you for the time. You told me how to build a clock. Just agree or not. Youve never seen an industry do the right thing absent any regulations have you?? . Whether or not they fight " doing the right thing" by influencing legislation against our interests is just another way of saying the same thing.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2018 09:03 pm
@farmerman,
Believe it or not two GOP presidents were quite active in pushing legislation that on paper looked like it would force industries
SUPERFUND and NEPA (were both started by R M Nixon )

CLEAN AIR ACT was pushed and signed by GHW Bush.

On paper both were great bunches of regs. The GOP party of 1970 through 1990 that would sponsor such legislation as a pro-business batch of regulation no-longer exists.

In the 1980's the EPA was full of highly trained and advancced degreed techies. Today, its full of lawyers busy fighting industry lawyers who , 30 years ago, wouldnt be running the show like they are today.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2018 10:15 pm
@farmerman,
I remember when cap and trade was a Republican idea too.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2018 06:49 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:

The point is they are involved in the legislative, judicial, and regulatory processes in such a way that allows them leeway to continue to do harm while pretending to be under control.



I sorta just asked you for the time. You told me how to build a clock. Just agree or not. Youve never seen an industry do the right thing absent any regulations have you?? . Whether or not they fight " doing the right thing" by influencing legislation against our interests is just another way of saying the same thing.

You are implying they don't do the right thing on their own so therefore it is good to regulate them.

I am saying that your implicit assumption is wrong because they will control the regulatory system in their own favor and be even stronger harm-doers because of it.

In short, regulation doesn't solve the problem. They must take responsibility; everyone must take responsibility for solving the problems from the ground up.

If they don't, they will hold each other accountable for failing to do so, one way or another. Pretending to regulate them while accepting that they won't do the right thing on their own is just a way of obfuscating the continuing failure to self-regulate.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2018 07:10 am
@livinglava,
People and companies who resist state regulation will also resist self-regulation... Logic, anyone?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2018 08:48 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
You are implying they don't do the right thing on their own
Im more than "implying" IM clearly stating it outright.

edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2018 08:54 am
@farmerman,
I couldn't agree more.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2018 06:57 pm
We regulate traffic on the streets, roads and highways, to assure people's safety. We regulate traffic on waterways, to assure people's safety. We regulate air traffic to assure people's safety. We have known for many, many decades that lead is poisonous, even in the early 1960s, people were warned about the hazards of lead in paint, and not to let their children eat paint chips. Why were people warned? Because corporations really don't like paying off lawsuits.

They also don't like changing things that bring in profits, and they don't like to re-tool and find new ways to make their products--the only thing they like is the bottom line, which they like to be big. So in other arenas, they did nothing about lead pollution until government regulated them. Lead was not removed from paint until the 1970s, lead was not removed from gasoline until the early 1980s, and it was not removed from the solder of canned goods until the 1990s, for dog's sake.

LL first, just likes to argue, but second, and more importantly, wallows in ignorance and right-wing shibboleths. She should change her screen name to LalaLand, because that's where she lives.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2018 08:59 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
You are implying they don't do the right thing on their own
Im more than "implying" IM clearly stating it outright.

Did you intentionally focus on the wrong part of my post to obfuscate what you're quoting?

The emphasis in my post was on the second part, i.e.:

so therefore it is good to regulate them

You are saying it is good to regulate business because they don't do the right thing and I am telling you that regulating them only pacifies the public into thinking that the regulations are somehow preventing them from doing what they would do if they weren't being regulated.

In fact, the regulations are just a facade to prevent people from seeing that the system as a whole, i.e. business + government, is abusive. Government is pretending to protect the people from business while, in fact, aiding them in making money so they can tax them. In short, government is just putting themselves on the payroll of business and pretending to regulate them for the good of the people, when in reality they just let them do whatever makes the most money.

Government also invigorates business competition by forcing businesses into paying unnecessary costs, often in the name of mitigating harm, which further stimulates the economy and causes businesses to work that much harder to make the money they spend, which causes even more pollution and waste.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2018 09:12 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

We regulate traffic on the streets, roads and highways, to assure people's safety. We regulate traffic on waterways, to assure people's safety. We regulate air traffic to assure people's safety. We have known for many, many decades that lead is poisonous, even in the early 1960s, people were warned about the hazards of lead in paint, and not to let their children eat paint chips. Why were people warned? Because corporations really don't like paying off lawsuits.

They also don't like changing things that bring in profits, and they don't like to re-tool and find new ways to make their products--the only thing they like is the bottom line, which they like to be big. So in other arenas, they did nothing about lead pollution until government regulated them. Lead was not removed from paint until the 1970s, lead was not removed from gasoline until the early 1980s, and it was not removed from the solder of canned goods until the 1990s, for dog's sake.

LL first, just likes to argue, but second, and more importantly, wallows in ignorance and right-wing shibboleths. She should change her screen name to LalaLand, because that's where she lives.

For some things, like lead paint, it might work; but for CO2 and climate change, the government only stimulates more economic activity with everything they do to 'solve' the climate. If you want real sustainability reform, you have to stop greenwashing socialism and start combining fiscal conservatism with environmental/economic reforms. That means allowing the gap between rich and poor to grow while preventing those with money from spending it in ways that waste resources.

You can't keep satisfying the public will to socialism, because they just want more money to spend on things that use energy and resources. They need to make and spend less money, not more. How can austere people waste resources and cause climate change? What socialists dream of is a green economy where people can have their cake and eat it too by making it using renewable energy, etc. but in reality 'reduce' is the most important part of the mantra, 'reduce, reuse, and recycle.'

Reusing is secondary and recycling is less wasteful than dumping trash and mining new materials to replace them, but recycling actually uses a lot of energy and materials degrade each time they are recycled. Re-using things uses less energy and, ultimately, gentle use makes things last longer and thus reduces the need for new production as well as waste-dumping.

Stop greenwashing socialism and realize people just need to reduce and re-use more while cutting their energy use and driving by switching to alternative transportation and only heating/cooling a single, small, well-insulated area of their homes. Then restore tree growth to all the paved areas you can and whenever you renovate/re-build a building, fragment the ground-floor into smaller footprints with trees growing in between. That way you are basically reforesting deforested areas of land without eliminating humans altogether.

None of these sustainability reforms cost more money, though. They actually work by people making and spending less and doing more manual labor instead of operating machines running on external power sources.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2018 11:19 pm
You are completely delusional. As I said, you, like Olivier, just like to argue. None of what you have posted is substantiated, it's all a confused fantasy on your part.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2018 01:34 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
You are saying it is good to regulate business because they don't do the right thing and I am telling you that regulating them only pacifies the public into thinking that the regulations are somehow preventing them from doing what they would do if they weren't being regulated.


I understood what youve said, but I dont buy it.
Clean air and clean water regs have resulted in noticeable positive results. Regulations often have the added benefit of stimulating technology to assist in their enforcement.Entire industries have developed and grown around meeting the goals of the regulations
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2018 01:49 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
We have known for many, many decades that lead is poisonous, even in the early 1960s, people were warned about the hazards of lead in paint, and not to let their children eat paint chips. Why were people warned? Because corporations really don't like paying off lawsuits.
There was a period of time in which industries, complying with regs, attempted to collect cleanup and damage costs from their environmental impairment liability insurance policies. The point was that, the INSURANCE COMPANIES, (wanting never to pay up on claims), spent many decades trying to define with legal clarity , WHEN indutries and standards of practice were such that "We should have known what to do but merely failed to do it".
With such clear definition the terms of the policy claims became invalid and the insurance carriers saved thwir asses in hundred million dollar claims. It made good reading in several "creative non-fiction " books like "A CIVIL ACTION" (They made a movie with John Travolta as the smack ass lawyer who bet his career in "Making sure that doing right was the outcome" and that someone hadda do some time and lose some big bucks as punishment.

It was an exciting time that ha gone away ever ince the insurance policies are , today, only written with the provisos that noone collects on claims if the claims were invalidated because the claimant wasnt "doing the right thing" from the get go.








livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2018 02:40 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

I understood what youve said, but I dont buy it.
Clean air and clean water regs have resulted in noticeable positive results. Regulations often have the added benefit of stimulating technology to assist in their enforcement.Entire industries have developed and grown around meeting the goals of the regulations

The bottom line is there is no clean fuel, so conservation is necessary. All fossil fuels produce CO2 but coal gets the blame in order to make fracking and nuclear look clean by comparison. Oil is a problem so they set higher mpg standards and everyone just goes on driving with the whitewashed hope that technological advances will come along to relieve them from the need to change their behavior and geographical land-use patterns.

It's really not the difficult to understand the carbon balance. The sun shines and plants grow, animals eat the plants, and the sediments build up over eons to form fossil fuel deposits. That is the process of CO2 absorption and conversion into non-gas forms.

We are making CO2 and paving and developing land so it no longer absorbs CO2. It's that simply and the solution is simply to eliminate as much CO2 production as possible (i.e. reduce energy use) and return as much of the land to natural growth as possible (i.e. return pavement and developments to living soil with robust trees growing in them).

We don't want to do that, though, because developed square footage is a commodity. Cars are commodities. Energy is a commodity. We don't want to give up trading these commodities because that is how we exchange capital for human labor, and human labor is what we really want. We want to go out to eat and have people serving us and washing our dishes and making our beds in our hotel rooms and fixing our houses and taking care of our kids and flying us around in airplanes and entertaining us, etc. etc. etc.

So we keep pretending their are technological and regulatory solutions that can preserve our wasteful lifestyle activities and land-use and development/transportation practices. The reality is that we have to reduce our footprint by using less energy, walking and biking mostly instead of driving or even taking transit all the time. We need narrower roads with more trees growing alongside them. We need narrower buildings so that more trees can grow between them and under them.

Basically we need to reform human societies so that the natural carbon cycle can be restored as part of human architecture instead of being something that is displaced by human habitation.

Government is not achieving that. They are obfuscating the problem by giving false hope in solutions that benefit the business interests of the status quo.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Dec, 2018 07:53 pm
@farmerman,
I don't even want to start on the insurance industry. That industry, along with big tobacco and the energy industry, have done monumental amounts of damage to the economy.

But the biggest destructive corporate venture was the one to manufacture tetraethyllead for use in gasoline. General Motors and Standard Oil formed a corporation for the purpose, but neither had chemical manufacturing experience, so they contracted Du Pont to do the dirty work. Then, circa 1960, a small Virginia corporation bought out that corporation, the biggest leverated buy-out in history to that time, by an order of magnitude--about twice what Andrew Carnegie was paid when he sold U.S. Steel. That became the Ethyl Corporation. All of this was backed originally by a cabal of mining interests who produced lead, often as a by-product of their main mining operations. Before the GM-Standard Oil venture in about 1920, lead for paint and some obscure manufacturing processes was their main sales avenue. Putting tetraethyllead in gasoline moved them into the big leagues. They were, of course, resistant to regulation, and as I noted, lead was still used in the solder to seal canned goods until the 1990s. After lead was introduced into gasoline, lead pollution rose by more than 600%.

Upton Sinclair became the most famous muckraker with his book The Jungle at the beginning of the last century. It not only exposed the disgusting practices of the meat-packing industry, but also the brutal working conditions. Fortunately for Sinclair, Theodore Roosevelt, Jr. was president, and as one of the last of the great progressive Republicans, he loved that kind of fight. We can date the era of genuine reform through government regulation to Sinclair. It seems that LL wants to return to those golden days when cheap, forcemeat sausages were called hot dogs for a good reason.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2018 04:51 am
@Setanta,
Ive got a 5 ft bookshelf on "Getting the lead out" . One of the things that slowed the cleanup in industry , was then Vice President Bush who sponsored the "Deregulation Subcommittee" which wanted to relax lad standards in all other industrial production.
TEL had been removed from engine design as a anti-knock . (The car manufacturers used their power of design innovation to cease its need just by increasing ignition efficiency in their intake ports).
TEL in gasoline , being used as an anti-knock was actually guilty in causeing rapid engine destruction (Piston chambers and exhaust manifolds just burnt out often as low as 100K miles) Imagine the market potential of a car that only lasts 100K miles today.

The "get the lead out" became an interesting seris of articles in NYT and New Yorker and SCientific American as cities said "**** you" to the Feds and started banning lead totally in the 1980's (EPA; Ann Gorsuch was busy trying to roll back the lead regs along with the VEEP. (remember Ann Gorsuch was hired from of the GM/Gen Tire/Std Oil/Dupont cabal).

Yep, sometimes regs even go against us until somon blows a qhistle. Many times its the much maligned free press.




 

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