timberlandko wrote:I find it sorta amusin' that agnosticism is be considered "Fence Sitting" - don't see it that way at all, myself. I think the arrogant absolutism that leads theists and atheists alike to declare it such flatly rejectin' the opposin' stance reveals a core flaw in either belief system. The way I look at it, theists and atheists alike are coppin' out - takin' an easy answer found to be personally satisfyin', as opposed to admittin' the matter is unresolved. Its far nore confortin' to declare a difficult question answered and drop the issue than to continue workin' on the question.
That makes sense, but I think in a sort of irrational, George Carlin way. I will say a lot of Atheist choose Atheism, not because they need the comfort of a resolved issue, but because they find an omnipotent, omniscient God laughable, while a lot of the Agnostics, that I know, choose Agnosticism because they want to seem objective. Blah, take a f'n chance...
Child of the Light wrote:timberlandko wrote:I find it sorta amusin' that agnosticism is be considered "Fence Sitting" - don't see it that way at all, myself. I think the arrogant absolutism that leads theists and atheists alike to declare it such flatly rejectin' the opposin' stance reveals a core flaw in either belief system. The way I look at it, theists and atheists alike are coppin' out - takin' an easy answer found to be personally satisfyin', as opposed to admittin' the matter is unresolved. Its far nore confortin' to declare a difficult question answered and drop the issue than to continue workin' on the question.
That makes sense, but I think in a sort of irrational, George Carlin way. I will say a lot of Atheist choose Atheism, not because they need the comfort of a resolved issue, but because they find an omnipotent, omniscient God laughable, while a lot of the Agnostics, that I know, choose Agnosticism because they want to seem objective. Blah, take a f'n chance...
The only problem here, childofthelight, is that beliefs are not chosen. If they were, there would be nothing in which to believe. It is somehow not consistent to assign conscious intention to a neurobiological process involving neurotransmitters and receptors and stuff like that.
I am an atheist for one reason only - I am unable to be otherwise. I have tried to see it from the deist and agnostic points of view, but that doesn't work for me.
Frankapisa, where are you when we need you?
edgarblythe wrote:I am an atheist for one reason only - I am unable to be otherwise. I have tried to see it from the deist and agnostic points of view, but that doesn't work for me.
Actually, that works for me too, edgar - I don't share your view, but I certainly can't fault the way you got yourself there. Problem is, way too many folks grab onto whichever one they find most agreeable, without engagin' in any critical thought whatsoever. I have come across Deists/Religionists who's position and exposition of such I respect as well. All stand out for their rarity among their less critically-minded, academically bankrupt, logic-and-reason-challenged co-philosophists.
Timber
I went to church faithfully, for a number of years, trying to be a believer. I wanted to have what the believers claim to have. But, for reasons I heve recounted more than once on A2K, I remain happily an atheist.
Me too edgar. I was brought up in the church. All my siblings are Christians. They're all nice people (except for the way they are always evangelizing.....and not just me....and they will not stop, no matter what.) It just didn't work for me. I don't believe it because I've never discovered a way to believe when I didn't.
The suggestion that I don't believe for some other reason is chronic and I often get frustrated. I've given Christianity and a few other religions as well a good fair trial. But I don't find it helpful. I'd rather play racquetball.
But I don't mind if others are Christians, as long as they can be respectful of other's beliefs. Unfortunately so many, on both sides can't. I haven't met many evangelical atheists. But I have met a few. Mostly, I find I react when I think religion is being imposed on me.
Lola
One of my best friends died a few weeks ago. He was a devout sort of Christian, who went to Guyana to gather converts. He died as peacefully as one can, believing he was bound for Heaven. He requested that his funeral be a joyous occasion. Despite our differences, we had a mutual affection and never once had cross words for one another. I don't begrudge him his faith at all.
Timberlandko, Have you ever checked out UU? You'd fit right in.
I mostly go for the music and to spend an hour with people who are comfortable in a room full of people where no one pretends to know the Truth.
Quite familiar with 'em, J_B (and technically, its
UUA) ... I have a number of freinds and acquaintances avowed of the persuasion. I don't fit in very well, though, I mostly drive them nuts too
J_B, I've never been able to understand the Uni-Unis. If you're going to have that ultra-liberal a position, why in the world bother with a so-called "church"? Why not just join a social club or a debating society?
Did you hear about the Unitarian urban missionaries? They come and ring your doorbell, but they're not quite sure why they're doing it.
lol,
I think it depends on what one gets from associating with a 'church' or religion. If it's to gather with like-minded individuals and prescribe to a given set of beliefs, then UU isn't the right choice. There are many facets of belonging to a church or religious group beyond dogma and creed. There is worship, religious education (youth and adult), social action, and yes community and social connections. UU offers all of that.
UUs have a set of guiding principles that can transcend all religions and their creeds. They are:
# The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
# Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
# Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
# A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
# The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
# The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
# Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
When my children were small I felt I needed to give them a religious foundation, but I couldn't get past some of the things I didn't believe from my own Christian upbringing. It would have been hypocritical of me to send them to a church where they were taught to believe things I didn't believe myself. UUs draw their services from all the world's major religions including Judeo-Christian, Eastern, and Pagan. Some have referred to it as a collection of Agnostics, others as a group of secularists pretending to be a religion. There are UU Christian Fellowships which more closely follow the earlier UU traditions. Personally, I find the services to be very spiritual, the RE programs varied, the people wonderful, and the opportunities to provide for the underprivileged rewarding. I started out by looking for a place to give my children some roots. I ended up finding some for myself.
I'd never considered it, but, as stands perfectly to reason, there's an official website:
The Universal Unitarian Association. A little further diggin' around revealed, also entirely unsurprisin'ly, there are a buncha divergent, even quite adamantly contentious, offshoots and splinter groups. Made for a fascinatin' web chase. A diverse lot indeed.
I was christened here in a Unitarian chapel
http://www.unitarian.org.uk/ecu/HydeChapel/#history
and confirmed here into the Church of England
http://www.norburypc.org.uk/
Which must make me unique.
(Always knew I was special)
