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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

 
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:12 pm
In my view, the frenzy caused by the Congress and the media is turning this situation into a constitutional crisis.

Initially, I was not all that concerned to see the FEDS call for a Federal Jude to review the findings of the State Court. That was done twice at the Federal level and the State decision stood.

That is the end of the matter as far as this observer is concerned.

It is time for the President to make a statement and pass the process back to the State level who has ruled in favor of the husband and it is the HUSBANDS decision.

I hate to have to agree with some people on this post, but this is now officially OUT OF HAND.

We have religious "nuts" pressing the President of the US to violate the constitution for one person??

The politics of this whole situation is about to bite the Repubs in their "butt".
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:32 pm
Quote:
Why block her parents access to Terri's medical records so they can see for themselves? And, for about the 6th time on two threads, why fight for the right to have her cremated without autopsy?


Bill- Personally, I agree with you. The point is, that LEGALLY, he is not obliged to do so!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:32 pm
Governor Bush is now trying to get the state legislators to pass a law to take away guardianship from Michael to the state social services department. They are now going extreme - idiocy.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:37 pm
for the sake of accuracy
Phoenix32890 wrote:

This is a tragic case. But emotion should not be a part of it. Law should!

Basically, it is very simple. A woman is in a vegetative state. Her husband is the legal next of kin, and legally has the right to determine whether a feeding tube should be removed. He wants it removed. The law is satisfied. Period.


Phoenix, you have misstated the law.

Michael Schiavo does NOT have the right to remove his wife's feeding tube as a matter of law simply because he's her legal husband.

That's not the law in Florida.

The law provides that every individual has the right to accept or refuse medical treatment after being informed of all medically relevant information including the possible risks and benefits of the treatment. This is called "informed consent."

The law also provides that every individual has the right to life.

In the absence of an individual's clear expression of a contrary intent, there is a presumption in favor of an individual's right to life.

Accordingly, the common law recognizes that any medical procedure performed upon you without your informed consent is a tortious battery. But, what if you are unable to give your consent for some reason? The law presumes that you would want to live and would want life-saving procedures taken to save your life.

If you were in a restaurant and started choking to death on a piece of meat -- and if a doctor (or a good samaritan) was sitting at the next table -- would you want him to perform the heimlich manever on you and dislodge the piece of meat so you could breathe or would you want him to allow you to die from choking?

If you were swimming in a lake and began to drown, would you want a good samaritan to initiate a rescue and save your life or would you want him to allow you to die from drowning?

There is a presumption in favor of life. We can presume that you would want to live and would welcome attempts to save your life. Most states have laws that protect good samaritans from any civil liability for their attempts to save your life.

The same applies if you collapse in your home and an ambulance is summoned. The law presumes that you would want emergency medical personnel to do everything in their power to save your life.

Yet, the law also recognizes that there may be situations wherein you would choose to refuse life-saving procedures. If you had full use of your cognitive and communication skills and were told that your medical situation is dire, there is no hope of recovery, and that the only way you can be kept alive is through the use of machines, you would have the right to refuse treatment. Based upon all the information provided to you, you could make the decision to refuse treatment and to stop any herioc or extraordinary means, including the use of artificial life support, to keep you alive.

But, what about the times when you cannot speak for yourself? The law allows you to execute an advance directive that will speak on your behalf when you cannot speak for yourself. Advance directives are often called living wills. In the event that you are suffering from a terminal illness or a condition with no hope of recovery and you are unable to speak for yourself, you can place instructions in your medical records concerning the use of herioc or extraordinary measures, artificial life support, and nuitrition and hydration. If you do so, your wishes as evidenced by your clear and unambiguous, written advance directive will be honored.

In some states, even if you have not left an advance directive, your wishes that you be "allowed to die" can still be honored if there is clear and convincing evidence of what your wishes are with respect to the specific circumstances that you find yourself in.

THUS, the law does not give Michael the right to terminate his wife's food and water simply because he is "next of kin." The law requires Michael to provide clear and convincing evidence that Terri HERSELF would make the decision to remove her feeding tube given the circumstances she now faces. The clear and convincing evidence has to be sufficient to rebut the presumption in favor of life.

In every court in the land, HEARSAY evidence (out-of-court statements offered into evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted) is inadmissible as untrustworthy and unreliable. There are very few exceptions to the hearsay rule, and those exceptions are based upon independent indicia of reliability.

In the Cruzan case, the state's highest court refused to accept hearsay evidence that Nancy Cruzan wouldn't want to live hooked to machines as clear and convincing evidence that she would wish to have her feeding tube removed.

The law doesn't give a damn what Michael wishes are as Terri's next of kin. The law only cares about what Terri herself would wish -- IF, and ONLY IF, we can clearly and convincingly KNOW her wishes.

Unfortunately, the trial court judge accepted Michael's hearsay evidence (bolstered by Michael's brother and the wife of Michael's brother) as "clear and convincing" evidence of Terri's wishes and rejected all other evidence to contrary and dismissed all evidence that challenged the credibility of Michael's hearsay evidence as "NOT RELEVANT." What?

The contradictory hearsay evidence in Terri Schiavo's case does not amount to clear and convincing evidence of her wishes as a MATTER OF LAW. Yet, every appellate court has treated the trial court's finding that Terri herself would wish for the removal of the feeding tube as a FINDING OF FACT that cannot be reviewed on appeal.

In my opinion, the lawyers for Terri's parents have dropped the ball. They failed to raise Terri's substantive due process claim and have instead focused on alleged procedural due process errors in their fight to save Terri's life. In doing so, they have compounded the errors in this case to the point of contributing to Terri's death.

Terri has a substantive due process right to life -- Terri has NEVER clearly and convincingly waived that right to life -- and the state cannot take that right away from her (regardless of the fairness of the procedures used) unless it has a compelling interest in doing so.

When applying the presumption in favor of life; quality of life does not even enter the picture. Neither the state nor any other person in this world can make any judgments about the quality of another person's life.

BUT . . . the fact remains that you are spreading misinformation on the law. Michael Schiavo does NOT have the right, as Terri's next of kin, to remove Terri's feeding tube.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:38 pm
Well, glory be, hallelujah. Thanx for coming around, woiyo. This is certainly an issue that MOST of us on able2know, whether it be conservative or liberal, should agree on, as it addresses the core value of our Constitutional liberties, and how government should not meddle in our private business.

I salute you!

Razz
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:41 pm
Deb,

I would respectfully point out that many judges have disagreed with you on this case; so there seems to be some confusion as to what the law actually is, doesn't there?

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:42 pm
Debra, You may know the law, but is way off the target. The judges favored Michael's decision because it was backed up by 1) doctors who have examined Terri, and 2) Terri's siblings also said Terri asked not be be kep alive when in "this kind" of condition. Terri is the final decision maker in this case - confirmed by Michael, her husband, and Terri's brother and sister. That's the bottom line; not what you think the law should be. That is the law, and 24 judges have already made their decision.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:49 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Must learn how to read, must learn how to read, must learn how to read....Sorry, Phoenix, misread your post. A million apologies.


c.i.- There is so much STUFF on this thread, that I don't have the foggiest idea of why you are apologizing. I tried to find what you thought that you said of which I might have taken umbrage, but I couldn't.

Whatever you thought that you did, don't sweat it. I think that the entire Schiavo issue has really gotten to people. Many are lashing out of frustration, and that's ok. We all need to ventilate!
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:51 pm
Debra - You are correct in saying that Terri's lawyers have dropped the ball. Yet, it is not the courts place to direct her attornies on how to argue their case.

As I see this, the courts have upheld Mr. Schiavos as Guardian.

They Fed's reviewed that States findings and ruled accordingly.

Case closed.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:53 pm
Phoenix, It's evident you didn't read my post before I made the edit; thank goodness! Appreciate your generous nature on this goof which was way out in left field.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:55 pm
Quote:
In the absence of an individual's clear expression of a contrary intent, there is a presumption in favor of an individual's right to life.


Debra_Law- No matter what our "take" on the subject, the various courts have apparently been satisfied that Terri had made her wishes known. We can argue ad nauseum as to whether the evidence of her intent was sufficient, but the courts appear to be convinced that she did not want to live in a PVS.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:57 pm
Well, it's final.

Denied; Death Imminent
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:59 pm
Not quite; they're now taking it to the Supreme Court, and gov Bush is working on legislation to take away guardianship from Michael.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 03:02 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Phoenix, It's evident you didn't read my post before I made the edit; thank goodness! Appreciate your generous nature on this goof which was way out in left field.


c.i.- We go back too long. No matter WHAT you said, I would still love you! Very Happy
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 03:03 pm
I guess I just figured that they wouldn't do anything about it either. And they are seriously running out of time. How long has the tube been out?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 03:06 pm
Phoenix, Really happy to hear that. You're one of the steady voices on a2k, and it would be my very last wish to sever our long-term, like-minded relationship.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 03:07 pm
Since the 18th.

It'll be interesting to see how far this is pushed. The Republicans have reached out massively on this one, and it remains to be seen whether they will try to circumvent the law...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 03:09 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Since the 18th.

It'll be interesting to see how far this is pushed. The Republicans have reached out massively on this one, and it remains to be seen whether they will try to circumvent the law...

Cycloptichorn


Yeah ... I'm just waiting for Bush to give himself dictatorial powers. Should happen any day now .....
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 03:11 pm
I just don't think it's gonna happen. She could feasibly be dead by tomorrow.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 03:12 pm
Quote:
Yeah ... I'm just waiting for Bush to give himself dictatorial powers. Should happen any day now .....


/sarcasm?

It certainly wouldn't surprise me.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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