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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

 
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 03:48 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
What galls me more is the emotional outburst of this congress talking about Terri Schiavo's thirst and hunger, while we have living children and families without food and health care.

You've convinced me! I'm having an epiphany! I guess it's not immoral to starve her to death, since she obviously has no right to deprive other, more valuable members of society of sustenance.


Neither did that African American baby in Texas, it would seem... Rolling Eyes

http://uspolitics.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/healthlawprof%5Fblog/2005/03/lifesupport%5Fsto.html
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 03:58 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
What galls me more is the emotional outburst of this congress talking about Terri Schiavo's thirst and hunger, while we have living children and families without food and health care.

You've convinced me! I'm having an epiphany! I guess it's not immoral to starve her to death, since she obviously has no right to deprive other, more valuable members of society of sustenance.


Neither did that African American baby in Texas, it would seem... Rolling Eyes

http://uspolitics.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/healthlawprof%5Fblog/2005/03/lifesupport%5Fsto.html

Based on what I can glean from that one article, I don't agree with that either. Doctors have bestowed upon themselves the right to decide which care is "futile," ignoring the fact that it is partially a moral decision, and that while they are the experts on the medical evaluation, they are no more qualified to judge the moral part than anyone else. I wonder how long until the doctors, in their infinite wisdom (they think), decide that anyone over 80 years old is only to be given palliative medicines, since treatment will usually only provide a few more years of life for people that old, and younger, fitter people need the resources.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:04 pm
Outside of the medical community that has the ability to determine health issues, we already have the moral issues covered by existing laws and precedence. That's the reason why Terri Schiavo had court appointed doctors who evaluated her condition and determined her health and diagnosed it as PVS. Her husband did everything possible in the last 15 years to do best for his wife. Where were you then? You talk about morals, but have no idea what you are talking about.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:13 pm
Oh, those lying Republican neocons:

Quote:
At the gaggle this morning, White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan defended a law Bush signed as governor of Texas in 1999:

McClellan's statement grossly distorts the nature of the law. The law does not ensure that actions are taken "in accordance with the wishes of the patient or the patient's family." In fact it codifies and legalizes the ability of doctors to stop treatment even if it goes against the explicit directive of the patient or the patient's family.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/03/20050321-2.html


And hypocritical, too, it would seem...
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:14 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Outside of the medical community that has the ability to determine health issues, we already have the moral issues covered by existing laws and precedence.

Well, I guess we can stop changing the laws around now, since you declare them to have morality all sewed up. In fact, I guess I can stop making moral judgements althogether, since it has already been done.

cicerone imposter wrote:
That's the reason why Terri Schiavo had court appointed doctors who evaluated her condition and determined her health and diagnosed it as PVS.

Not all of the court appointed lawyers did. In 2002, five physicians were chosen - two by the Schindlers, two by Schiavo, and one by Judge Greer - to examine Terri and report to the court. Both of the ones chosen by the Schindlers thought she was not PVS.

cicerone imposter wrote:
Her husband did everything possible in the last 15 years to do best for his wife. Where were you then?

Where did you want me, at her bedside? Maybe he did all that he could, or maybe he wants to kill her for some base reason.

cicerone imposter wrote:
You talk about morals, but have no idea what you are talking about.

That is a rather comical overstatement. Okay, I will concede that you are the expert on morality. I shall immediately cease "talking about morals."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:20 pm
You are the one that brought up the subject of "morality." Trying to iimose your morals on to others will go nowhere fast. And I never claim to be "the expert on morals." You must learn to read the English language correctly; an area which seems you are lacking.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:26 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Maybe he did all that he could, or maybe he wants to kill her for some base reason.

Maybe the doctors and the courts have been working on this very question and you don't realize how silly you look trying to come in at the 11th hour to impose your views.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:29 pm
DrewDad, It's more like the 13th hour. Terri has been in this condition for some 15 years.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:30 pm
Were's the morality of the Republican party using Terry Shiavo, her husband, and her family for political gain only?

You neocons have been awfully silent on that issue. And you claim to have the moral high ground on this? LOL!!
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:30 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
You are the one that brought up the subject of "morality."

I am sorry I brought up the subject of morality in a discussion that obviously has nothing to do with it.

cicerone imposter wrote:
Trying to iimose [sic] your morals on to others will go nowhere fast [sic].

I guess we'd better withdraw that law against homicide, and that one against bank robbery too.

cicerone imposter wrote:
And I never claim [sic] to be "the expert on morals." You must learn to read the English language correctly; an area [in] which [it] seems you are lacking.

cicerone imposter had previously written:
Quote:
...You talk about morals, but have no idea what you are talking about.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:35 pm
Quote, "I guess we'd better withdraw that law against homicide, and that one against bank robbery too." Those laws were established even before you were born. They are NOT your morals that established those laws. You have a twisted mind, and everybody else seems to see it except yourself.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:36 pm
dyslexia wrote:
ok for all you lawyers out there, here is my understanding of the current situation, congress is about to pass a bill specifically ordering the fed courts to accept jurisdiction if/when a petition for review is submitted to the court specifically by the parents of terri schiavo to which the court is ordered to accept the petition which in effect means that the court must accept defined petition-open the proceedings and then reject such petition on the grounds of consitutiional violation of separation of powers between the judicial branch and legislative branch, correct or not?




See U.S. Constitution:

Quote:
Article I

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to . . . .

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


Article III

Section 1. The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. . . .

Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States. . . .

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. . . . .

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.


See also 42 U.S.C. ยง 1983

Quote:
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.


See also:

CRUZAN v. DIRECTOR, MDH, 497 U.S. 261 (1990)

Quote:
It cannot be disputed that the Due Process Clause [of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution] protects an interest in life as well as an interest in refusing life-sustaining medical treatment.



Federal courts have jurisdiction to hear cases arising under the U.S. Constitution and laws of the United States. Congress has authority to make laws to enforce the Constitution. Congress has authority to make laws to enforce the Fourteenth Amendment which prohibits states from taking a person's life without due process of law. When Congress enacted a law granting standing to Terri's parents to bring a case in federal court concerning Terri's constitutionally-protected right to life, Congress was acting within its power.

There are two forms of due process: procedural and substantive.

An existing person's right to life is a substantive, fundamental right. The inquiry whether a substantive, fundamental right has been violated goes far beyond the question of whether the procedures used were fair.

The right to substantive due process forbids the government to infringe certain “fundamental” liberty interests at all, no matter what process is provided, unless the infringement is narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest.” Reno v. Flores, 507 U.S. 292, 301–02, 113 S. Ct. 1439, 1447, 123 L. Ed. 2d 1, 16 (1993); accord Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U.S. 702, 722, 117 S. Ct. 2258, 2268, 138 L. Ed. 2d 772, 788 (1997);

The State may not deprive any individual of the substantive, fundamental right to life unless doing so serves a compelling state interest. Unlike criminal defendants who have been convicted of heinous crimes beyond a reasonable doubt and are sentenced to death, the State has NO COMPELLING INTEREST in ordering Terri's death.

There is NO evidence that Terry gave her informed consent to the withdrawal of nutrition and hydration. In the absence of the clearest possible proof that Terri would want life-sustaining food and water withdrawn, the state should not be ordering her death.

Michael Schiavo, acting under the color of state law via a state-issued court order, has ordered his wife's death. However, Terri's parents vehemently disagree that Terri would want food and water withheld. In other words, Terri has a protected right to life. If there are any doubts concerning Terri's wishes concerning the withdrawal of food and water (nutrition and hydration), I believe the federal constitution requires that Terri's life be preserved by maintaining her access to food and water.

Terri's parents ought to have access to a federal court to hear Terri's case concerning her "right to life" as protected by the federal constitution.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:41 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Quote, "I guess we'd better withdraw that law against homicide, and that one against bank robbery too." Those laws were established even before you were born. They are NOT your morals that established those laws.

Come, come, don't be obtuse. Those laws incorporated the morals of previous people who lived, just as many laws are rooted in the morality of the people who advocated them. Within his lifetime, everyone has the right to advocate laws that he believes are right and just.
cicerone imposter wrote:
You have a twisted mind, and everybody else seems to see it except yourself.

Thank you for your interesting observation. I shall give it all the consideration it is due.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:45 pm
Debra, Although your personal opinion leans towards the approval of Congress to establish laws to save Terri Shiavo's life, why haven't they made any efforts before? This is not a new phenomenon in our country; many have not prepared legal documents to express their wishes concerning the prolonging of their life. I believe that's the reason the Constitutional laywers differed in their opinions about what Congress just did. Most laws established by Congress are for future events, and not specifically for one person. It also means that all future patients who did not sign a release must be taken care of in our hospitals - at government cost if they are comatose.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:54 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Maybe he did all that he could, or maybe he wants to kill her for some base reason.

Maybe the doctors and the courts have been working on this very question and you don't realize how silly you look trying to come in at the 11th hour to impose your views.
This isn't new and he's not at alone.

Brooklyn, Debra and Husker and others have provided a multitude of sources that suggest the possibility of foul play. As is usually the case (accept to the hyper partisan) this isn't a clear cut black and white subject. Did you read this?

Quote:
State-Funded Agency to Probe Claim of Spousal Abuse in Terri Schiavo Case

Bone scan and injuries indicate severe trauma and strangulation
TAMPA BAY, October 27, 2003 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The Florida State Advocacy Center for Persons with Disabilities, has decided to launch an investigation into the spousal abuse claims of the parents of Terri Schiavo. The severely disabled Florida woman whose life was spared by an executive order by Governor Jeb Bush to halt her court-ordered starvation, has, according to experts, sustained injuries consistent with abuse.

Michael Schiavo, Terri's estranged husband, who has been in a long-fought court battle with Terri's parents to end her life, fuelled suspicions of abuse when he sought and was granted a court order that Terri's remains would be cremated immediately following her death. Terri's parents, the Schindlers, were requesting an autopsy.

Other factors pointing to abuse include:

- Testimony of nurses who looked after Terri indicated that Michael was verbally abusive to Terri and may have attempted to kill her by insulin injection and attempts to induce pneumonia by turning the thermostat in her room to 64 degrees.

- Michael Baden, one of the most acclaimed forensic experts in North America, in an interview on Fox News National Television broadcast Saturday said Terri's bone scan indicates that Terri's injuries are not consistent with the suggested explanation of a heart attack or potassium imbalance. He said they are consistent with severe trauma possibly caused by a beating and would warrant an immediate investigation.

- Dr. William Hammesfahr, Nobel prize nominee and neurologist, testified that Terri's neck injuries are consistent with only one type of injury: that of strangulation.

Commenting on the case, Alex Schadenberg of the Euthanasia Prevention Coalition said, "It would come as no surprise to me that she had been abused previous to her disability, knowing that since1993 she has received continuous abuse by being denied basic medical care, visitation of loved ones, religious visits, and any form of rehabilitation."

Schadenberg warned however that the practice of euthanasia by withdrawal of nutrition and hydration from people who are not otherwise dying is common both in the United States and Canada. He pointed out that the argumentation around the case is not addressing the central point that nutrition and hydration should not be considered medical treatment. He noted that a 1990 U.S. Supreme Court decision wrongly allowed nutrition and hydration to be considered medical treatment.

In response to the six-day denial of food and fluids to Terri Schindler-Schiavo, the National Right to Life Committee is calling on state legislatures throughout the nation to move to protect people with disabilities from being denied food and fluids. The organization has issued a "Model Starvation and Dehydration of Persons with Disabilities Prevention Act."

See the NRLC model legislation for States:
http://www.nrlc.org/euthanasia/modelstatelaw.html

Terri's supporters have also asked pro-lifers to encourage AARP to intervene to save Terri's life and not against it: [email protected]

See also
Media 'getting it wrong' on Terri Schiavo story
Press erroneously report she's 'comatose,' doctors also dispute vegetative-state ruling

** People who are aware of the truth are calling in to radio and television stations insisting that they correct the misinformation. For example, Toronto News radio station 680 was reporting last week that Shiavo was in a persistive vegetative state. LifeSite called to say that that was not correct. The news room immediately acknowledged the error and corrected it. This would not have happened had no one called.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35270


http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2003/oct/03102701.html

=====================================

a surprise move the state's social welfare agency asked for an indefinite delay to investigate potential abuse of the severely brain-damaged woman. 02/23/05
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_stay.htm



Theresa Marie Schiavo's Bone Scan
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_bonescan

Today Terri's loving mother and sister were turned away because Michael has now revoked their visitation privileges... possibly denying Mrs. Schindlar her last chance to see her daughter alive. This guy is an A-Hole Ad Baculum. Evil or Very Mad
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 04:59 pm
That's rather informative, Debra.

But what does any of that have to do with the Republican neocons turing this into an 11th hour political football? Where were they during the last 15 years of Terry's life as a vegetable?

Perhaps this is why they are NOW doing this:

http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/03/republicans_sch.php#comments

You can argue Constitutional law all you want until you're blue in the face. It still doesn't address these 11th hour shenannigans and "sudden" change of heart between not only Republican neocons, but Bush himself.

I don't think I've seen this many religious nutjobs going against their political leaders.

If I was a Republican, I'd be pretty scared right about now.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 05:02 pm
Kudos to Debra. A clear voice of what the law is and what the moral law should be.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 05:05 pm
What is the definition of murder?

In states that have adopted a version of the model penal code, murder is defined as "knowingly or intentionally causing the death of another."

It is one thing to "allow a person to die" when that person is terminally ill and death is imminent upon the removal of ventilator . . . but is is quite another thing to "cause the death of another" by withholding food and water when the impairment alone would not kill them.

Terri Schiavo is alive. If any one of us went into her hospice room and fired a bullet into her head, we would be guilty of murder. How is causing her death through the deliberate and intentional withholding of food and water any different than causing her death by a lethal injection or a gun shot to her head? It's murder any way you look at it.

The state does not have a compelling interest in sanctioning the murder of Terri Schiavo. She's not a convicted criminal on death row. She's an impaired woman who has a life expectancy of many years but for the fact that a Florida court has given her estranged husband the legal right to murder her.

This is not your typical "right to die" case . . . it's a "right to murder" case . . . and that's why Congress has stepped into the fray to ensure that the Fourteenth Amendment is enforced and that this woman's right to life is protected by a federal court.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 05:05 pm
Quote:
Brooklyn, Debra and Husker and others have provided a multitude of sources that suggest the possibility of foul play. As is usually the case (accept to the hyper partisan) this isn't a clear cut black and white subject. Did you read this?


How about pasting from a more non-partisan site instead? Can't really take a site like this seriously when it is so politically tied into the Republican party.

But it would make sense for these shameless neocons to now accuse the husband of trying to kill his wife. Neocons are trying desperately to label him a killer whether he does it out of sheer mercy (pulling the feeding tube out), or to make allegations via innuendo that he was trying to kill his wife BEFORE she was brain damaged.

This is just so disgusting.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 05:21 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Maybe he did all that he could, or maybe he wants to kill her for some base reason.

Maybe the doctors and the courts have been working on this very question and you don't realize how silly you look trying to come in at the 11th hour to impose your views.
This isn't new and he's not at alone.

Brooklyn, Debra and Husker and others have provided a multitude of sources that suggest the possibility of foul play. As is usually the case (accept to the hyper partisan) this isn't a clear cut black and white subject. Did you read this?

Yes.

I also think that the courts have a better understanding of her condition, the events leading to her condition, and the law surrounding her condition than we could possibly have.

I find the idea that the Florida authorities have not investigated these allegations, that video (web) voyeurs are more insightful than the police to be questionable at best.

I further note that the allegation of strangulation comes from the quack doctor that the parents hired.




I do find it perfectly believable that both parties are following their conscience and that the courts have made their impartial ruling.
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