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The Schiavo case; separation of church-state abuse

 
 
Brandon9000
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 10:10 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Only the living has the gall to fight to keep somebody that's brain dead alive by forced feeding.

She isn't brain dead, which is a very specific thing. I request that you not misrepresent the basic facts of the case.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 10:20 pm
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parados
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:01 pm
Quote:
However, regarding the fundamentals of this situation, it is no violation of separation of powers or anything else for the legislature to regulate euthanasia, which is the sort of law that would be most appropriate here. I would like to see a court rule that any law regulating euthanasia is automatically unconstitutional, and then back it up with something that the Constution actually says.
I never said anything about the legislature not being able to regulate euthanasia. They can but all the laws about euthanasia can't insert a feeding tube back into Terry Schiavo since they would violate the Florida state constitution concerning the court decision on Schaivo.

Perhaps you should stop leaping to conclusions as well as stop making assumptions. ;-)

This from the National Institute of Neurological disorders
Quote:
A persistent vegetative state, which sometimes follows a coma, refers to a condition in which individuals have lost cognitive neurological function and awareness of the environment but retain noncognitive function and a perserved sleep-wake cycle.

It is sometimes described as when a person is technically alive, but his/her brain is dead.
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Brandon9000
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:03 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
If Terri is PVS (Permanent Vegetative State), she is brain dead....

First of all, I believe there is some disagreement about whether she is PVS. Secondly, your own article says that there is some brain activity. Therefore, although she may or may not be partially brain dead, she is not just plain brain dead. It would be instructive to know the degree and nature of the of activity in her brain. There are some claims that she reacts purposefully to those around her - even with emotion.

Even if it could be shown that she is unaware of her existence, the most I would agree with would be withdrawal of life support, but she is not on life support. I would still not feel it was proper to deny her food and water unless it could be shown that she was both unaware of her own existence and incapable of experiencing pain, and, even then, it would not be my choice of killing methods.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:05 pm
The "only" brain activity is her ability to sleep and wake somewhat normally. She responds to no external stimuli - no matter how hard her parents wish it so.
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Brandon9000
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:07 pm
parados wrote:
I never said anything about the legislature not being able to regulate euthanasia. They can but all the laws about euthanasia can't insert a feeding tube back into Terry Schiavo since they would violate the Florida state constitution concerning the court decision on Schaivo.

If a law were passed forbidding euthanasia for any person in her situation, then the basis of the court ruling would be defunct, and they would have to re-insert the feeding tube. Were it not reinserted, the hospice could be prosecuted for violating the new law. I find your use of a smiley rather offensive given the topic of debate and certain other factors which it would be pointless to bring to your attention.
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Brandon9000
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:08 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The "only" brain activity is her ability to sleep and wake somewhat normally. She responds to no external stimuli - no matter how hard her parents wish it so.

I doubt you can prove either of your two specific statements above.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:09 pm
Nor can you; I'm depending on the experts who supports what I say.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:11 pm
Neurologists say after six months in PVS, the likelyhood of recovery is probably impossible. I agree.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:12 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Neurologists say after six months in PVS, the likelyhood of recovery is probably impossible. I agree.

For the record, my arguments don't usually make reference to recovery.
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parados
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:13 pm
Quote:
If a law were passed forbidding euthanasia for any person in her situation, then the basis of the court ruling would be defunct, and they would have to re-insert the feeding tube.
Actually no, the lower court ruled that the original law violated Schaivo's privacy to refuse medical treatment under the Florida constitution. That ruling would still stand. That particular ruling wasn't appealed because the law was tossed on other grounds. The court would toss that new law out very fast based on the exact same reasoning.
That was my original point. If the legislature keeps attempting to interfer, it makes it harder and harder for the courts to be lenient to their attempts.
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parados
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:16 pm
Quote:
First of all, I believe there is some disagreement about whether she is PVS.
The only Drs that say she isn't PVS are the two hired by her parents to specifically say that. And one of those 2 is presently charged with fraud in promoting a cure for PVS in a different case. The court appointed lawyer in the case stated she is PVS.
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Brandon9000
 
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Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 11:19 pm
parados wrote:
Quote:
If a law were passed forbidding euthanasia for any person in her situation, then the basis of the court ruling would be defunct, and they would have to re-insert the feeding tube.
Actually no, the lower court ruled that the original law violated Schaivo's privacy to refuse medical treatment under the Florida constitution. That ruling would still stand. That particular ruling wasn't appealed because the law was tossed on other grounds. The court would toss that new law out very fast based on the exact same reasoning.
That was my original point. If the legislature keeps attempting to interfer, it makes it harder and harder for the courts to be lenient to their attempts.

If I were convinced that she has refused medical treatment, or, to be accurate, feeding and water, and that her refusal described this type of situation, I would shake my head and withdraw my objections, although it is a heck of a cruel way to go. However, I do not believe there is any evidence that she did refuse treatment.
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parados
 
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Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 09:34 am
Quote:
However, I do not believe there is any evidence that she did refuse treatment.
Nor do you have any evidence that she said she wanted treatment. Because you have no evidence either way we are forced to listen to the person most likely to have that evidence, her husband.
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Brandon9000
 
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Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 10:04 am
parados wrote:
Quote:
However, I do not believe there is any evidence that she did refuse treatment.
Nor do you have any evidence that she said she wanted treatment. Because you have no evidence either way we are forced to listen to the person most likely to have that evidence, her husband.

Yes, and he has no evidence except his unsubstantiated word. Before you kill someone, you ought to have actual evidence he/she they asked for it. His claim that she whispered something in his ear years ago isn't making it for me. His motives could be anything.
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parados
 
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Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 10:22 am
Sorry but hundreds of years of law going back to English common law gives him that right. You can't take it away without evidence.
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 01:36 pm
Sorry, but an involuntary laugh came out after reading the following article. Quote, "There are some congressmen that are trying to stop this bill," Ms. Schiavo's mother, Mary Schindler, told reporters outside her daughter's hospice. "Please don't use my daughter's suffering for your own personal agenda."
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 01:38 pm
yeah really C.I. kinda weird ain't it.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 03:50 pm
parados wrote:
Sorry but hundreds of years of law going back to English common law gives him that right. You can't take it away without evidence.

On the contrary, a health proxy's only role is only to state the prior wishes of the patient. The finding that she sould be killed is based on a finding that she whispered in something in his ear once. His unsubstantiated account is no basis on which to kill someone.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 03:54 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Sorry, but an involuntary laugh came out after reading the following article. Quote, "There are some congressmen that are trying to stop this bill," Ms. Schiavo's mother, Mary Schindler, told reporters outside her daughter's hospice. "Please don't use my daughter's suffering for your own personal agenda."

Since so many of the posters are arguing here based on very strong feelings that this is murder, why is it implausible that some of the congressmen are acting on that basis too? Claiming you know someone's motivation is a specious debating trick, since you have no knowledge of their motivations, and no one can prove or disprove your guess.
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