Where is East?

Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2020 01:20 pm
TheCobbler wrote:

It is folly to be wise with fools...

Damn right.
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Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2020 11:35 pm
Was syphilis in Europe thousands of years before Columbus?

Did syphilis come from the American Indians and infect Europe?

Once again we are told information that is believed for hundreds of years only to find out it is not true...

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Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2020 05:41 am
Your anti-science drivel is hilarious. There is a tropical disease called yaws which is caused by a spirochete, as is syphilis. No one believed for hundreds of years that yaws and syphilis were the same disease. Well withing the last century, yaws was identified in a clinical setting in a patient who had been believed to have had syphilis.

This is from the National Center for Biotechnology Information in the United States:

The correspondence by Mikalova et al.1 in this issue of Sexually Transmitted Diseases makes the important and very interesting observation that the genital lesion of a man diagnosed as having primary syphilis in Paris, France2, contained a Treponema strain that displays several molecular signatures that suggest infection not with Treponema pallidum subsp. pallidum as expected, but with T. pallidum subsp. pertenue, the causative agent of yaws.

Syphilis is usually transmitted sexually and now has a global distribution. Yaws is characteristically an infection acquired during childhood through skin contact in remote regions of Africa, South Asia, and the Western Pacific islands. A close relative of the syphilis and yaws treponemes is T. pallidum subsp. endemicum, which causes bejel (also known as endemic syphilis) and is traditionally found in the Middle East and in desert regions of West Africa. These 3 treponemes share the ability to infect humans and to cause chronic infections that appear initially as single lesions, progress to disseminated lesions, and ultimately may cause serious and destruction of tissues including skin, cartilage, and bone. Dogma states that the major differences among the subspecies include the mode of transmission (venereal vs. nonvenereal) and the inability of the nonvenereal treponematoses to cause neurosyphilis or congenital infection (reviewed in Ref.3). The finding of this organism in an apparently sexually acquired genital lesion reopens a decades-long nature versus nurture debate about the classification of the pathogenic Treponema. In 1963, Hudson4 proposed the “unified” theory in which he suggested that all of the treponemal infections--syphilis, yaws, and bejel--were caused by the same etiological agent and that the mode of transmission and clinical characteristics of infection were dictated by various aspects of the environment. According to Hudson, in warm and humid tropical conditions, lesions would appear on the extremities exposed by the limited clothing required in such a climate, resulting in yaws. Transmission occurs when children with chronic ulcerative lesions play, wrestle, and sleep with siblings and playmates. In contrast, in the hot and dry conditions of the Middle East and North Africa, bejel lesions would be seen primarily on the oral mucosa, and the infection would be transmitted by sharing of prechewed food, by moisture- seeking flies, and by sharing of drinking vessels. Venereal syphilis, which was originally recognized in the temperate climate of Europe where clothes typically cover most of the body, found a niche in the genital regions, thus becoming largely sexual transmitted. Hackett5, on the other hand, argued that the etiological agents of these infections were genetically distinct and that the differences in clinical manifestations among the infections were due to biological differences of the causative agents. The advent of comparative genomics permits us to reexamine this debate and to critically evaluate the long-held dogma concerning the treponematoses.

Early genetic analyses of the existing strains of T. pallidum subsp. pallidum, pertenue, and endemicum revealed several genetic signatures that can be exploited to differentiate these 3 subspecies, supporting the Hackett argument.6–10 Application of these tools to a number of strains, however, revealed some inconsistencies. For example, the Haiti B strain, which had been isolated from a typical frambesiform yaws lesion on a boy in Haiti and had been studied extensively in the hamster model of yaws, was shown to have the molecular signatures of the pallidum subspecies.6 The Mexico A and Sea81-3 syphilis strains had some, but not all, signatures in common with T. pallidum subsp. endemicum strains.9

More detailed genetic analyses have led to both further divisions and further blending of the subspecies. The tpr gene family had been identified quite early as a repository of genetic diversity among the subspecies, along with several other genes. Comparison of the full sequences of the tpr genes among a large number of pallidum, pertenue, and endemicum strains revealed that the pallidum subspecies can be divided into at least 5 genogroups and that some of the unusual hybrid gene sequences seen in pallidum strains are also found in some members of other subspecies.11 Full genome sequence comparisons have also confirmed the finding of overlapping genetic characteristics among subspecies.12–15 For example, the sequencing of the Seattle 81-415 and Mexico A12 strains, both isolated from penile chancres, revealed many typical pallidum genetic signatures, in addition to some pertenue markers. Thus, although some molecular signatures clearly differentiate strains into the 3 subspecies, other signatures result in cross-subspecies groupings. Furthermore, comparative analysis of the syphilis versus yaws strain genomes failed to provide an explanation for the long-claimed lack of invasiveness of the yaws and bejel strains.14

Is the dogma concerning the lack of serious invasive disease in the nonvenereal infections actually true? The literature contains reports of neurological and cardiovascular involvement in patients diagnosed as having yaws,16–19 and reports of genital lesions and sexual transmission in bejel.20 Furthermore, a significantly increased rate of miscarriage, consistent with transplacental infection, has been documented in women with bejel.20 In the hamster model of congenital infection, one study demonstrated that the Nichols strain of subsp. pallidum caused congenital infection, whereas the Haiti B strain (then thought to be pertenue) failed to cause infection.21 This was claimed to confirm the lack of congenital infection in yaws, although later molecular typing clearly showed Haiti B to be a pallidum. Knauf and colleagues22, 23 have recently reported highly destructive genital lesions, apparently sexually transmitted, in wild baboons in Tanzania; these lesions seem to be caused by a treponemal strain most closely related to subspecies pertenue strains.

We now return to the Parisian man with a penile chancre caused by a “yaws” strain. Is there anything special about sexual transmission, such that only the subsp. pallidum strains can cause genital lesions? We certainly know that pallidum strains can be transmitted nonvenereally; in the days before universal precautions, dentists developed chancres on the fingers after exposure to oral lesions of syphilis, and wet nurses could develop nipple chancres from nursing infants with congenital syphilis. Is there any reason to believe that pertenue strains should be less able to infect the skin of the penis, compared with the skin of the arms and legs? As stated by Mulligan et al.,24 “mode of transmission appears to be defined by opportunity, rather than biology.”

Although no details have been provided about the likely source of the genital infection in the Parisian man and no further genetic characterization has been provided by Grange et al., several molecular signatures identified by Mikalova et al. have indicated a close relationship to the Gauthier strain that is considered to be a pertenue strain. This observation by Mikalova et al. provides yet another chink in the armor of the Hackett view of treponemal infections. With increased examination, clinical evidence for a clear distinction between the venereal and nonvenereal treponematoses is receding, and a biological or genetic basis for the purported clinical differences is still lacking.

It is possible that the few genetic signatures described in the strain from the Parisian man might be compatible with sexually transmitted infection with a “yaws-causing” strain, but we further propose that the accumulated evidence is very suggestive that pathogenic Treponema may represent a genetic continuum of organisms whose modes of transmission, clinical manifestations, and even host ranges can overlap. Molecular tools have provided the ability to examine many more strains of infectious agents rapidly and to examine them at a greater genetic depth. Such studies in the Treponema and in other species are likely to reveal a more ecumenical view of pathogens and their capabilities.

When Is Syphilis Not Syphilis? Or Is It? (The footnotes can be examined at the linked site.)

As is your wont, you're just making things up as you go along. The skin lesions which are characteristic of yaws bear a superfdicial resemblance to the lesions in the primary stage of syphilis. Therefore, those with no medical education and unfamiliar with the scientific method came to a foolish conclusion--just as you so often do yourself. You sneer at others for their ignorance, but never admit your own.

Of course, as always, this does nothing to support your silly thesis that religious beliefs (note the plural) of Meso-America were "imported" into Egypt and Mesopotamia. That idiocy is also exploded by the lack of anything more than a superficial and grossly untutored similarity between ancient Egyptian religious beliefs, and the beliefs prevalent in Mesopotamia in the same era.
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Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2020 05:42 am
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Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2020 04:48 pm
Flood myth section
Lines 1-203, Tablet XI [8] (note: with supplemental sub-titles and line numbers added for clarity)

Ea leaks the secret plan
Utnapishtim tells Gilgamesh a secret story that begins in the old city of Shuruppak on the banks of the Euphrates River.
The "great gods" Anu, Enlil, Ninurta, Ennugi, and Ea were sworn to secrecy about their plan to cause the flood.
But the god Ea (Sumerian god Enki) repeated the plan to Utnapishtim through a reed wall in a reed house.
Ea commanded Utnapishtim to demolish his house and build a boat, regardless of the cost, to keep living beings alive.
The boat must have equal dimensions with corresponding width and length and be covered over like Apsu boats.
Utnapishtim promised to do what Ea commanded.
He asked Ea what he should say to the city elders and the population.
Ea tells him to say that Enlil has rejected him and he can no longer reside in the city or set foot in Enlil's territory.
He should also say that he will go down to the Apsu "to live with my lord Ea".
Note: 'Apsu' can refer to a fresh water marsh near the temple of Ea/Enki at the city of Eridu.[9]
Building and launching the boat
Carpenters, reed workers, and other people assembled one morning.
[missing lines]
Five days later, Utnapishtim laid out the exterior walls of the boat of 120 cubits.
The sides of the superstructure had equal lengths of 120 cubits. He also made a drawing of the interior structure.
The boat had six decks [?] divided into seven and nine compartments.
Water plugs were driven into the middle part.
Punting poles and other necessary things were laid in.
Three times 3,600 units of raw bitumen were melted in a kiln and three times 3,600 units of oil were used in addition to two times 3,600 units of oil that were stored in the boat.
Oxen and sheep were slaughtered and ale, beer, oil, and wine were distributed to the workmen, like at a new year's festival.
When the boat was finished, the launching was very difficult. A runway of poles was used to slide the boat into the water.
Two-thirds of the boat was in the water.
Utnapishtim loaded his silver and gold into the boat.
He loaded "all the living beings that I had."
His relatives and craftsmen, and "all the beasts and animals of the field" boarded the boat.
The time arrived, as stated by the god Shamash, to seal the entry door.
The storm
Early in the morning at dawn a black cloud arose from the horizon.
The weather was frightful.
Utnapishtim boarded the boat and entrusted the boat and its contents to his boatmaster Puzurammurri who sealed the entry.
The thunder god Adad rumbled in the cloud and storm gods Shullar and Hanish went over mountains and land.
Erragal pulled out the mooring poles and the dikes overflowed.
The Annunnaki gods lit up the land with their lightning.
There was stunned shock at Adad's deeds which turned everything to blackness. The land was shattered like a pot.
All day long the south wind blew rapidly and the water overwhelmed the people like an attack.
No one could see his fellows. They could not recognize each other in the torrent.
The gods were frightened by the flood, and retreated up to the Anu heaven. They cowered like dogs lying by the outer wall.
Ishtar shrieked like a woman in childbirth.
The Mistress of the gods wailed that the old days had turned to clay because "I said evil things in the Assembly of the Gods, ordering a catastrophe to destroy my people who fill the sea like fish."
The other gods were weeping with her and sat sobbing with grief, their lips burning, parched with thirst.
The flood and wind lasted six days and six nights, flattening the land.
On the seventh day, the storm was pounding [intermittently?] like a woman in labor.
Calm after the storm
The sea calmed and the whirlwind and flood stopped. All day long there was quiet. All humans had turned to clay.
The terrain was as flat as a roof top. Utnapishtim opened a window and felt fresh air on his face.
He fell to his knees and sat weeping, tears streaming down his face. He looked for coastlines at the horizon and saw a region of land.
The boat lodged firmly on mount Nimush which held the boat for several days, allowing no swaying.
On the seventh day he released a dove that flew away, but came back to him. He released a swallow, but it also came back to him.
He released a raven which was able to eat and scratch, and did not circle back to the boat.
He then sent his livestock out in various directions.
The sacrifice
He sacrificed a sheep and offered incense at a mountainous ziggurat where he placed 14 sacrificial vessels and poured reeds, cedar, and myrtle into the fire.
The gods smelled the sweet odor of the sacrificial animal and gathered like flies over the sacrifice.
Then the great goddess arrived, lifted up her flies (beads), and said
"Ye gods, as surely as I shall not forget this lapis lazuli [amulet] around my neck, I shall be mindful of these days and never forget them! The gods may come to the sacrificial offering. But Enlil may not come, because he brought about the flood and annihilated my people without considering [the consequences]."
When Enlil arrived, he saw the boat and became furious at the Igigi gods. He said "Where did a living being escape? No man was to survive the annihilation!"
Ninurta spoke to Enlil saying "Who else but Ea could do such a thing? It is Ea who knew all of our plans."
Ea spoke to Enlil saying "It was you, the Sage of the Gods. How could you bring about a flood without consideration?"
Ea then accuses Enlil of sending a disproportionate punishment, and reminds him of the need for compassion.
Ea denies leaking the god's secret plan to Atrahasis (= Utnapishtim), admitting only sending him a dream and deflecting Enlil's attention to the flood hero.
The flood hero and his wife are granted immortality and transported far away
Enlil then boards a boat and grasping Utnapishtim's hand, helps him and his wife aboard where they kneel. Standing between Utnapishtim and his wife, he touches their foreheads and blesses them. "Formerly Utnapishtim was a human being, but now he and his wife have become gods like us. Let Utnapishtim reside far away, at the mouth of the rivers."
Utnapishtim and his wife are transported and settled at the "mouth of the rivers".
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Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2020 04:51 pm
Matthew 4:4 kjv
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds. out of the mouth of God.

Is this to imply that is was not agriculture that civilized people into cities but instead spirituality?
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Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2020 04:57 pm
George Smith, a 19th-century Londoner who studied Sumerian tablets in the British Museum, deciphered some legends about devastating floods:

“The wickedness of men so displeased Enlil, the Supreme God, that he decided to swallow man up in a huge flood. Enki, protector of men, pleaded with him but in vain, so Enki decided to preserve a remnant. He asked Zisudra to build an ark and to take animals in pairs on board with him, After six days and nights of storms the world was submerged. On the seventh day, the storm abated. Zisudra released a dove that, finding no resting place, returned to him.On the eighth day he released a raven that never returned. Mankind was saved.”

Margueron: We discovered the Mesopotamian myths only a little over 100 years ago, particularly in texts from the library of Nineveh – in particular, The Deluge.

I assume that biblical writers never dreamed that archaeologists would dig up these old Sumerian tablets and discover their grand plagiarism and forgery...
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Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2020 05:07 pm
The Ludlul-Bel-Nimeqi - Not Merely a Babylonian Job

The Ludlul-Bel-Nimeqi is a Babylonian poem which chronicles the lament of a good man suffering undeservedly. Also known as `The Poem of the Righteous Sufferer', the title translates as "I will praise the Lord of Wisdom". In the poem, Tabu-utul-Bel, age 52, an official of the city of Nippur, cries out that he has been afflicted with various pains and injustices and, asserting his own righteous behavior, asks why the gods should allow him to suffer so. In this, the poem treats the age old question of `why do bad things happen to good people' and the poem has thus been linked to the later Hebrew composition The Book of Job. No scholarly consensus exists on a date for the writing of Job (nor, for that matter, when the story related is supposed to have taken place) but many point to the 7th, 6th, or 4th centuries BCE as probable while Ludlul-Bel-Nimeqi dates to c. 1700 BCE. The Babylonian poem was probably inspired by the earlier Sumerian work, Man and His God (composed c. 2000 BCE) which, according to Samuel Noah Kramer, was written "for the purpose of prescribing the proper attitude and conduct for a victim of cruel and seemingly undeserved misfortune" (589). In this, the poem follows a paradigm of Babylonian writers borrowing from earlier Sumerian pieces as exemplified in The Epic of Gilgamesh where the Babylonian scribe Shin-Leqi-Unninni (c. 1300-1000 BCE) drew on separate Sumerian tales of the King of Uruk and formed them into the now famous epic.



Happy Ishtar! Smile
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Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2020 05:13 pm

By simply coating a boat with tar on the underbelly this would have made it seaworthy enough to cross the Atlantic...

I am not certain this method of using tar on boats by the Sumerians has been proved but this documentary seems to think it is a fact.
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2020 06:13 am
It seems the earliest writings of Sumeria do mention the use of oil on the bottom of boats. Whether if t was "tar" or not, I don't know. It seems quite possible.

The British thought they were the first to use tar on boats.

The British also thought they invented the "assembly line" which was used thousands of years earlier in China...

My how we were taught so many things that turn out to not be true.

Did Gilgamesh have a gay lover?

Why did Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek? Smile
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Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2020 08:00 am
None of which bullsh*t that you have been posting, of course, supports that hilariously inept claim that people from Meso-America exported their religion to Egypt and the middle east.
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Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2020 09:31 am
I personally believe that an ancient form of Zoroastrianism predated the culture of Sumeria.

When the Sumerians talk of angels and giants who were living on the earth, they are referring to this cloistered cult of Zoroastrian ideas.

The Zoroastrian law that they are not to marry anyone who is not of their faith is why they are referred to as angels cohabiting with the daughters/sons of man.

When early Zoroastrians cohabited with others outside their faith they shared with them their language, writing, religion, agriculture and animal husbandry (mainly horses).

The hunter gatherers took this knowledge gave it their own brand of polytheism, and built great cities and eventually conquered the people who gave them this knowledge. They created many languages and their "tower of Babel"...

These early Zoroastrians are the "aliens" who towered over all others and gave fire to humanity...

(I also believe that the cult of Sodom and Gomorrah were Zoroastrian in nature.) (angel worshipers)

I know that many will disagree and say Zoroastrianism was thousands of years later than Sumeria. But, I still believe that this ancient cult existed at the time of Sumeria either in India, the mountains and plains of Iran and southern Asia. "East"...

They may have been highly civilized but nomadic and their reverence of the earth forbid them from defacing the earth in any way.

So their existence over thousands of years was untraceable and nearly invisible.

I also believe that there are parts of the Middle East that have not been excavated and that someday there may be scant traces found of the existence of the early Zoroastrian cults, perhaps in Iran, northern India and southern Asia...

Just as early tribes existed for many thousands of years in the Americas and left nearly no trace of their existence... because of their reverence for the earth.

These are the angels (Nephilim), giants and aliens spoken of in the Old Testament and the ancient writing of the Sumerians; the Zoroastrians are much like the wind... and they are "invisible" but over thousands of years have shaped our world view.

Even the Greeks spoke of them as the "Titans" who gave fire to man and lived secluded on their island cave with their one eyed (monotheistic) cyclops... (and "under the sea".)

Though far fetched this is plausible given the "missing links" in the ancient records of Sumeria.

Even the Egyptians would have come in contact with this ancient cult though Akhenaten and the mysterious coded copper scrolls of the Essenes.

A giant void in history can only be explained by the existence of this elusive tribe of nomadic Zoroastrian scholars of the East.

Cush and Noah (Gilgamesh) were also cohabiting with the early Zoroastrians.

Zoroaster was the first to write down an ancient oral tradition which spanned thousands of years back into prehistory...

It might be thought that the "great flood" story was written to cover up the humble roots of Zoroastrianism in the Sumerian religion.

So that only those 'before the flood" were privy to the secret wisdom of the Zoroastrians.

The biblical flood story is the reverse of this...
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2020 07:10 pm
With the Gilgamesh flood story... After the flood, "many gods" sprouted out of the aftermath.

As the opposite occurred in the Hebrew flood... The polytheists were all drowned and a monotheistic patriarch Noah alone remained to repopulate the world and reveal what God was.

These flood stories were invented as if there was a real flood when perhaps it was simply a story to convince people to forget the old religion and adopt the new.

One might say, well, the ancient Zoroastrians did not invent cuneiform. No, they did not...
They had a much older language...
And cuneiform was rapidly invented, as was the flood story, to help put a language barrier between the old Zoroastrian religion/language and the future offspring of the population and priests. So within a few generations they could no longer communicate with one another.

And even more languages (Babel) were "spoken into being" to further distance people from the old "antediluvian" world.
Each new language adopting the same polytheism of the language before them.

Just as the faces and cartouches of Akhenaten were vandalized to attempt to erase him from memory...

Thus the pure language of one god was lost and replaced with a man-made language that bore the system of many gods deep within. Written in stone and baked by the sun.

The greatest fear of polytheism is monotheism.

Floods are used to wipe it out and to reestablish it.

But was it really reestablished? Or was a clever version of polytheism reestablished and called monotheism?

Can we ever find the true language of God?

The language that when spoken evokes magic and creation? Life and rebirth?

There are many magic spells but if the words that comprise those spells are not genuine then the spells are rendered empty and powerless.

Only living words can summon the power of the divine in us.

Perhaps, by the time Zoroastrian religion was written down, it too had lost touch with the antediluvian world.

How can we find this pure first language of the cosmos? The language that is first nature?

It would seem that revelation, communicating with the deity, a messenger and mediator between God and humanity is possibly the way back to creation. Music, harmony and pure tones like the string theory that reverberate and draw energy from deep within atoms and quarks.

Diverse unknown tongues, speaking mysteries and intersession with the spirit...
Reply Tue 12 May, 2020 05:14 pm
The third largest pyramid in the world is at Teotihuacan Mexico, built 2000 years ago.

The coincidence is that they made the interior of the pyramid with stones and covered the outside with limestone... Just exactly as was done in Gaza Egypt.

Merely a coincidence...

Reply Tue 12 May, 2020 05:32 pm
Gaza is not in Egypt. Back to your ancient astronauts again? Try Giza . . .

Giza is most famous as the location of the Giza Plateau: the site of some of the most impressive ancient monuments in the world, including a complex of ancient Egyptian royal mortuary and sacred structures, including the Great Sphinx, the Great Pyramid of Giza, and a number of other large pyramids and temples.

Source at Wikipedia
Reply Tue 12 May, 2020 05:34 pm
My Dog . . . you'll believe anything. The biblical flood story was lifted wholesale from Gilgamesh, along with a good deal more of their scriptural claptrap.

Say . . . wanna buy a bridge?
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Reply Tue 12 May, 2020 05:50 pm
By the way, the Sumerian, polytheistic civilization is far older than Zoroastrianism, by 1500 years or more.
Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 10:37 pm
Zoroaster was the first to write down an oral tradition that may have been passed down for thousands of years earlier.

Many civilizations and their culture have existed for thousands of years without writing...

Just because Sumeria had cities and writing does not mean other non-literate cultures with their own thought and traditions did not thrive around the Sumerian culture and perhaps even before them.

When the bronze age collapsed, even the Babylonians forgot how to write their own language.

No on can say for sure how old the oral traditions of Zoroastrianism is because there is no written record of that time.

Did Zoroaster make it all up or did he speak of a much older order of priests and worship?

Considering that Zoroaster's religion is a very sacred form of nature worship, it is likely that is goes back into prehistory.

Sanskrit may have come from Zoroaster and so may the Persian horse also have been domesticated by his tribes....
Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 10:38 pm
Thanks for the correction on that Set. Giza...

And, I do not really believe in ancient astronauts. I think the earth is too remote, life too spread out and for the most part not evolved enough. The universe to too young.

I do not think brick pyramids need space "beings" to help build them.
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Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 11:41 pm
I don't accept your claim. The Sumerians had written records for well over a thousand years before your boy Zarathustra came along.

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