7
   

Where is East?

 
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2020 05:05 pm
A majority of today's historians and archaeologists are now saying that first cities were not started with the advent of agriculture but instead were started with the advent of religion.

The earliest cities did not have communal granaries and were occupied by hunter gatherers yet these cities had large towers and were walled in. Each person fended for themselves...

But they did have religious centers, temples, priests/shamans...
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2020 05:08 pm
@TheCobbler,
Got a source for that tripe?
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2020 06:30 pm
@TheCobbler,
TheCobbler wrote:

A majority of today's historians and archaeologists are now saying that first cities were not started with the advent of agriculture but instead were started with the advent of religion.

The earliest cities did not have communal granaries and were occupied by hunter gatherers yet these cities had large towers and were walled in. Each person fended for themselves...

But they did have religious centers, temples, priests/shamans...

Logically, farming evolved gradually from hunting and gathering as people learned more techniques for controlling the food organisms that they were hunting and gathering.

Probably the religious centers you mentioned were places where people would bring offerings in exchange for advice/tips, and agriculture gradually evolved through the dialogue between 'workers' and the 'theorists' in the temples.

Just guessing. Interesting topic, btw.
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 12:01 am
@Setanta,
Actually I do... Let me look for it.



0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 12:31 am
@TheCobbler,
TheCobbler wrote:
The earliest cities did not have communal granaries and were occupied by hunter gatherers yet these cities had large towers and were walled in. Each person fended for themselves...


This is the bullshit you're never going to be able to demonstrate. Hunter-gatherers occupied cities? Who built the cities they occupied?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 12:43 am
NPR, When did agriculture begin?

However:

First evidence of farming in Mideast 23,000 years ago.

None of that, of course, lines up with your bullsh*t about religion coming from Meso-America.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 05:43 am
@Setanta,
It is not my bullshit, I did not make the video.

Go argue with the tests that found cocaine and tobacco in mummies...

Your certainty without proof is both ignorant and really stupid.

Thor Heyerdahl crossed the Atlantic on a raft...

Was there intercontinental exchange? You don't know for sure, and your insulting attitude reveals your lack of proof.

I am not saying there was or wasn't exchange but with intelligence comes an open mind to the possibility (which is not even that remote).



You have no proof to back up your opinion and you know what they say opinions are like...

Where did I say religion came from Mesoamerica? You need to get off drugs.

Cities made from mud could have vanished long before agriculture...

Once again, your surety simply shows what an idiot you are.

Africa had religion ten thousand years before humans set foot in the middle east...

Central Africa
Bantu mythology (Central, Southeast, Southern Africa)
Bushongo mythology (Congo)
Lugbara mythology (Congo)
Baluba mythology (Congo)
Mbuti mythology (Congo)
Dinka religion (South Sudan)
Hausa animism (Chad, Gabon)
Lotuko mythology (South Sudan)
East Africa
Bantu mythology (Central, Southeast, Southern Africa)
Gikuyu people#Culture and beliefs (Kenya)
Akamba mythology (Kenya)
Maasai mythology (Kenya, Tanzania, Ouebian)
Kalenjin mythology (Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania)
Dini Ya Msambwa (Bungoma, Trans Nzoia, Kenya)
Horn of Africa
Waaqeffanna (Ethiopia)
Waaqism (Ethiopian-Somali Region)
Southern Africa
Bantu mythology (Central, Southeast, Southern Africa)
Lozi mythology (Zambia)
Tumbuka mythology (Malawi)
Xhosa mythology (Southern Africa)
Zulu mythology (South Africa)
San religion (South Africa)
Traditional healers of South Africa
Manjonjo Healers of Chitungwiza of Zimbabwe
West Africa
Akan religion (Ghana, Ivory Coast)
Dahomean religion (Benin, Togo)
Efik mythology (Nigeria, Cameroon)
Edo religion (Benin kingdom, Nigeria)
Hausa animism (Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Côte d'Ivoire, Ghana, Niger, Nigeria, Togo)
Odinani (Igbo people, Nigeria)
Serer religion (A ƭat Roog) (Senegal, Gambia, Mauritania)
Yoruba religion (Nigeria, Benin, Togo)
West African Vodun (Ghana, Benin, Togo, Nigeria)
Dogon religion (Mali)

I suppose you didn't think of that...

Your arrogance is disgusting, distasteful, lacking decorum and civility. .
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 06:00 am
@Setanta,
I don't need to demonstrate it, the video I provided shows their style of thatch huts and the city they built in Jericho.

Religion and tribal rituals could very well have drawn people together and civilized them long before anyone ever picked up a rake and tilled the soil.

The idea that cities need agriculture to exist is absurd...

...and yes the Atlantic can be crossed on a raft.

You say there was agriculture 20,000 years ago. You imply that somehow miraculously every single civilization suddenly had access to it... Then in the same breath you deny cultural exchange...

Your version of history that you vehemently impose on people is narrowly conceived, disingenuous and full of contradiction...

Oh yea and, arrogance is a sign of a lack of intelligence... (just saying)
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 06:03 am
@TheCobbler,
You are the one making a claim you cannot support. You are the one making statements which are not supported by the few sources you eo provide. Called on your bullsh*t, you start making insulting statements.

Heyerdahl's Ra did not make it across the Atlantic, and the crew had to be rescued. Ra II did make it to Barbados, but you still have problems. It was built using materials in Chad, but the Egyptians never controlled that region. Both Ra and Ra II were launched from Morocco, another region which the Egyptians never controlled.

But your biggest problem is so glaringly hilarious, I am flabbergasted you son't see it. You have been saying that religion was exported from Meso-America to the middle east, not from Egypt to the Americas.

I suppose you'll now indulge more insults and name-calling.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 06:08 am
TheCobbler wrote:
There are some theories that Babylonian religion actually came from Mesoamerica including pyramid building and many other ideas.


Source
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 06:09 am
See if you can respond in fewer than 5000 words, and without any name-calling.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 06:10 am
@TheCobbler,
TheCobbler wrote:
A majority of today's historians and archaeologists are now saying that first cities were not started with the advent of agriculture but instead were started with the advent of religion.


You have utterly failed to support this outrageous claim.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 06:19 am
@TheCobbler,
TheCobbler wrote:
You say there was agriculture 20,000 years ago. You imply that somehow miraculously every single civilization suddenly had access to it... Then in the same breath you deny cultural exchange...


I provided an article which suggests that agriculture was practiced 23,000 years ago--I didn't say that. If you were as clever as you make yourself out to be, you'd see that the 12,000 ybp (years before the present) which is the majority opinion is still older than the foundation of Jericho. Jericho was a town, not a city. The original settlement occupied six acres. The little town of 800 people I grew up in occupied more space than that.

I implied nothing of the kind. If you had actually read the articles which I linked, you'd have seen that the paleoanthropologists involved came to the conclusion that agriculture was begun in several places. I have never subscribed to the notion of exclusive cultural diffusion. (Not that I have any confidence that you'll understand what that means.)

I haven't denied cultural exchange--I just find the notion that religion in the middle east came from Meso-America to be hilariously improbable. When you make such a claim, you assume the burden of proof. You have proven nothing.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 11:54 am
@Setanta,
10 Pieces of Evidence That Prove
Black People Sailed to the Americas
Long Before Columbus
https://www.lahc.edu/studentservices/aso/bsu/knowyourhistory/10PiecesofEvidenceThatProve.pdf

Modern human settlement occurred around 125,000 years ago in the Middle Stone Age, as shown by archaeological discoveries at Klasies River Caves. The first human habitation is associated with a DNA group originating in a northwestern area of southern Africa and still prevalent in the indigenous Khoisan (Khoi and San).

Settlement/city/town, kind of splitting hairs huh?...

How long ago did Black people occupy areas of South America?

How did they all die out?

We still don't know definitively how the Neanderthals died out in Europe either.

Did the Middle East get their religion from the Black people of Africa?

Did the Mesoamericans get their religion from Africa?

What about the temples built under the temples in Mesoamerica? How old were they? Many of which have never been excavated...

Your certainty and arrogance are an obstruction from a simple open minded inquiry.

Arrogant people denied for years the presence of Vikings in America until the settlements were found in Labrador...

You do not do the field of inquiry any service with your arrogant certainty.

You can call that kind of certainty by several derogatory names and still be correct.

Does that evidence prove Black people were in America?

Well, where is the evidence that disproves they were here???

Early Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa from as early as 270,000 years ago... how about we start there?

With cocaine and tobacco in Egypt when did that occur? What else did Egypt import from Mesoamerica?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 12:13 pm
@TheCobbler,
Man, you're all over the road. You also continue to ignore the core objection I raise to your bullsh*t. You claim that people from Meso=America took their religion to the middle east. You have provided ZERO evidence for that claim.

But, of course, the insults and name-calling continues. I see why you treat this as a blog site, and why you never venture into other people's threads. You simply can't handle contradiction and criticism. When you post bullsh*t claims, no one has to disprove them--you have assumed the burden of proof. You have proven nothing.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 01:39 pm
@Setanta,
And you have provided zero evidence that the Egyptians did not get their religion from the Americas...

It is a preposterous claim none the less but not impossible.

Since is it not impossible it is not to be rule out with certainty...

It is highly possible that Egypt got their tobacco from Mesoamerica (and their cocaine). What else did Egypt import? Who were they trying to outdo with their pyramids?

Please provide your own evidence... Or you are just spouting arrogant noise.

The DNA records do not support theses "theories" I have proposed. You might start with the DNA records rather than blathering on about absolutely nothing but your own conjecture and long held traditional ideas that are revised on a daily basis with each new discovery...

It is easier to prove there was no global (Noah's Ark) flood than to prove Egypt did not get their religion from the Americas.

Did they? It is unknown and may never be known for certain..

Because it is unknown, that still does not discount it.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 01:44 pm
@TheCobbler,
I don't have to prove you're wrong. If you make a claim, you assume the burden of proof--or, in your case, you are clearly unable or unwilling to assume that burden. I hope you're not a gambler, because they would tell you to put up or shut up. But you don't put up evidence, and you don't shut up either.

You have provided ZERO evidence that anyone in Africa (you don't seem to understand that Egypt is in Africa), or in Asia (Babylon was in Asia) got their religion from Meso-America.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 01:47 pm
As for the DNA evidence, I had thought about bringing that up, but I doubt you know the significance of that evidence. Humans whose ancestors have always lived in Africa have DNA markers which those whose ancestors left Africa do not have. If Africans came to the Americas before the 16th century, it would be obvious. No such DNA evidence has ever been found.

You disgust me with your constant insults. That's all you've got, isn't it slick, insults.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 01:51 pm
@TheCobbler,
TheCobbler wrote:

With cocaine and tobacco in Egypt when did that occur?

Is it possible some Egyptologists or guards or something were just smoking and using cocaine around the mummies after they were discovered in modern times and they were contaminated as a result?
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2020 01:57 pm
Your article about agriculture 23,000 years ago is fascinating but it leaves more questions than answers.

If agriculture is that old, why did cities not arise sooner?

It can then be inferred it was possibly religious centers that drew people to create urban areas. Towers and temples that gave the landscape an endearing lure and awe.

Oracles and "witch doctors" were probably relied upon to mark harvest times and when the Gods would spare them from floods and other natural disasters. The absence of a written language does not also imply no spoken language.

Religion is also a plausible catalyst towards the civilizing of humanity. In my opinion, the presence of religion is no guarantee for intelligence but it is an indicator of some rudimentary reason and rational...
 

 
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