Not all students are capable of honors/AP work

parados -- I've turned up the volume on the reception end. Hope others do the same!

Oh, I believe we make our selves heard well enough, POM - we just don't agree with what each other are sayin'. Dissent is the nature and foundation of debate, ain't it?

How big is your mortgage, Timber? Would you prevent a teacher from moving into your neighborhood? Do you do so by keeping salaries low?

Do you know how much time it takes to prepare to teach the early elementary grades? Do you realize how many hours checking papers entails?

Heard yesterday that the testing phenomenon is sending teachers away from the profession because it is lowering their personal standards, causing them to "teach to the test" and eliminating time consuming activities that generate real learning.

I have no mortgage - somethin' which has been mentioned in this discusion, I believe, or in a related one. Salaries for educators hereabouts are in line with, even a bit above, state medians, and while local property values are accelleratin', taxes are low. Several educators happen to live in the "neighborhood", though, as it is rural, the population density is rather low, and the "neighborhood" consists of what amounts to all or portions of several townships in 4 different counties. And yes, on average, a diligent teacher's classroom time amounts to something between a third to a quarter of the overall workweek.

And again, I don't defend the current testin' paradigm, I lump it in with the rest that is wrong with the educational establishment, and list it among the things that need to be fixed. It ain't workin', either.

Timberlandko -- As I have said countless times, my kids received a better education than I did. Of course, the two older kids were fortunate enough to spend some time at a Montessori elementary school and at a very good prep school. The youngest was entirely educated at the public school. Taking aside that this is the 4th or 5th ranked school system in the state, what the kids were taught and how, in the public schools alone was superior to the education I received.

I take it, then, that you feel the education your children are receiving is inferior to the one you were handed.

Now, when you answer a question with the statement that teacher's salaries are "in line with, even a bit above, state medians" you aren't saying anything.

With two master's degrees, I would have been paid $41,000 as a first year teacher here in this district. I looked at the Harvard web site today and an adminstrative assistant II receives a top pay of $41,359 and better benefits. This is not a district that pays well. Teachers are paid according to the amount of education they have, then by their seniority.
At that rate, I'd be better off as an administrative assistant III at Harvard then teaching here. But, then again, no one teaches for the money!

BTW, $41,000 would not have supported myself and my son this close to Boston.

In yet another interchange between the two of us, the education of my children was discussed. So was the fact both are no longer students; one is a military officer serving a second tour in Iraq, the other is an educator herself.

I take it then, your preconceptions override previously established matters at odds with your preferences.

I don't see that what you would or might have been paid where or when had circumstances been different is at all relevant. Circimstnaces never are different than they are, and no argument based on "had circumstances been different" has much of a future relative to "here and now with what has gone before". I don't disagree that teachers are inappropriately and inequitably paid as a general rule; at the oposite end of the scale so too are administrators, particularly senior administrators.

Well, just to give you a legitimate target. I actually do believe all students, unless mentally hadnicapped, have the same potential. If they are incapable, it is only because don't or haven't cared enough about a particular subject.

There, now you good target for your accusations.

(Sorry, I only noticed the first page of the thread, so my comment may be out of place).

Now that I finally am on a computer that accesses the internet through IE, I can respond.

Timberlandko:
This is an example of your writing:
I don't see that what you would or might have been paid where or when had circumstances been different is at all relevant.

The prose is bankrupt and the sense that I get out of it shows you failed to follow the thread of the conversation. Oh, well, what else is new?

If I don't remember all the details of your history, it is because there are many other things in my life, including other internet forums. However, now that I have been reminded about your own kids, I remember the negative thoughts I had about them. I will be adult and not relate those thoughts. However, I can not figure out what you are doing on the school board. The local school board functions for its members in one of two ways: !.) It is a means of participating in the education of their own children; 2.) It is generally an entree into politics; the first step, if you will. With your own chaotic reasoning; your inability to express yourself and your muddy goals, why are you involved? You need to step aside and allow a more vital member of the community to occupy your seat.

SCoates -- Your in-put is welcome. What ever turns an individual child off is a mystery. Sometimes, the parents are to blame, while at other times, a teacher bears the burden of guilt. Sometimes, it is the economy or the lack of opportunity within an individual community that makes education seem redundant. Sometimes, it is the fact that the child recognizes that his abilities are marginal, creating the feeling that continuing in education is unnecessary.

The primary motivation for my involvement with local politics is to stand as a bullwark against the sorta nonsense championed by those with whom apparently you align, POM. I'm on the Township Board and the County Board as well, holdin' various positions or offices and sittin' on or chairin' an assortment of committees. Seems I keep gettin' re-elected, so obviously, I ain't alone in my sentiments. Just for interest, I'll add I've been a Township and County board member much longer than I've been a Schoolboard member - folks had been on me to go for it a good while before I finally did. With next-to-no campaignin' on my part, the many-term incumbent I replaced on my first effort garnered barely a third of the vote total I tallied.

Timberlandko -- You are on the side of lowered educational standards; wasted money, and poor communications.

I am on the side of intellectual development; critical thinking; literacy; higher standards of discernment; appreciation of art, music, science, originality, beautiful language and human diversity.

Maybe the only reason you are re-elected is that people vote for incumbents. I wonder just how many of your constituents actually have spoken with you. People write as they speak and talking directly to them might cause you to lose your next election.

Resign, T., and the level of education where you are will rise.

I can't help but wonder if you, like your daugter, are in Georgia, where the schools, with a few exceptions, are nothing to be proud of. My daughter told me of a social satirist who calls the G.O.P., the party of bad ideas. Commenting on the rise of Alabama schools from 50th place to 49th, he asked whether the distribution of pencils raised the level. My comment was that the real concern was with the state that dropped to 50th.

Today, the bulk of my salary will come from assisting the assistant pricipal with preparations for the MCAS. She feels as I do: that it is redundant and an expensive waste of time. That's what you stand for but the sad thing is that you don't realize it.

Have you figured out why I gave you the salary comparison and just how meaningless your statement about teacher salaries in your area is?

I must differ. I'm a strong proponent for increased standards and accountability, along with vastly more efficient expenditure of money and other resources. I'm also pretty big on improvin' communication through eliminatin' PC BS.


Pretty much all for that myself. After readin', writin', and 'rithmetic are down and handled. Without a foundation, ya can't build a palace.


Apparently you're quite unfamiliar with the dynamics of small-community/rural politics. Insularity is not a notable feature. In the main, those who do take the time and effort to vote not only vote, but know precisely for whom and for what reasons they vote. Outsiders, strangers, newcommers, and folks not visible and active within the community don't fare well at all in elections hereabouts.


Not bloody likely. I consider political service a civic responsibility, and I'm pretty big on responsibility - a concept apparently foreign, even antithetical, to those of your persuasion.


As mentioned earlier, my daughter, a contract Special Education specialist (published, and multiply degreed, BTW, earnin' far in excess of most teachers directly employed by school districts in her area) is in Georgia, while I'm in Wisconsin.


Some comfort is drawn from assumin' your classroom time is thusly reduced, thereby lessenin' your opportunity to further perpetrate damage on buddin' minds. What I stand for, BTW, and I say again, is a thorough restructurin' of the educational system, startin' at the top; among the most intractable of problems is the administration of the system. The troops are no better than their officers. The system must be made efficient, effective, and accountable - none of which currently apply.


Frankly, I don't see how either are particularly relevant. The example I cited was as much by way of "So what?" as in direct refutation to the unfounded allegation of yours which brought it forth.

Credit where its due, though; I'll say I find this exchange immensely entertainin'. Thanks a bunch for the amusement. I'm confident there's plenty yet to come - I look forward to it.

Apparently you're quite unfamiliar with the dynamics of small-community/rural politics. Insularity is not a notable feature

Totally untrue. People move to exurban areas to isolate their homes with land and because "the neighbors are far away and I like it that way."

Haven't the stomach to read the rest of your braying at the present time, but, with your own philosophy and writing and comprehension as a indicator, you know nothing about quality. If you are capable of using real examples, perhaps you could attempt to be concrete and leave your generalities behind.

Gotta love irony. I do appreciate the way you make my points for me. Thanks for helpin'.

T -- Ah, yes, I remember the nuns pointing out that empty cans make the most noise. You've never offered a concrete suggestion once nor have you demonstrated the ability to follow a line of discourse. The apostrophes at the end of words are not cute. At 60-plus, you need to stop acting like a frat boy.

I submit, POM, I specifically and repeatedly have called for restructurin' the existin' system from the top down, devisin' and institutin' uniform, reasonable but rigorous achievement standards, imposin' accountabilty, eliminatin' tenure, and rewardin' accomplishment, not political finesse. While you may not consider such to be concrete suggestions, I do.

I submit further your incessant attack on my person and my style as opposed to offerin' objective counter to my argument exposes the intellectual bankruptcy of the approach you have adopted, and of your argument's foundation.

I wear disapprobation from those of your persuasion as a badge of honor.

I'm a strong proponent for increased standards and accountability, along with vastly more efficient expenditure of money and other resources. I'm also pretty big on improvin' communication through eliminatin' PC BS.


This is just rhetoric. You remind me of Richard Nixon who was elected twice on an undisclosed plan to end the war in Vietnam. If you have ideas, state them, or, are you using threads like this as a way of finding out things you can present as your ideas to your community? And does more efficient expenditure mean stupid things like cutting the passing time between classes to three minutes or eliminating art and music?

You must live in a time warp if you think people are still concerned about political correctness. Why don't you find out what it was, who supported it and when it lapsed from the public consciousness?

I'm a strong proponent for increased standards

Now, when I told you about how the left wing students of the late 60s and early 70s started working on educational standards by majoring in the subjects they wished to teach, rather than in education, you made a flip remark that displayed your ignorance. It seems to me that improvement begins at home and we launched the movement for improvement.

However, when I interviewed at Nashua (NH) High School in 1976, the principal, a much older man, thought I had taken too many English classes. Gee!

I consider political service a civic responsibility, and I'm pretty big on responsibility - a concept apparently foreign, even antithetical, to those of your persuasion.


By my persuasion, do you mean the left? Well, dear little boy, it is the left that takes on personal responsibility. Remember that the right is for sending jobs over seas, for limiting school budgets, for cutting social security, for not funding health insurance.
Remember, as I posted above that the left sought to improve schools by beginning with the teachers, who were themselves. Stop displaying your titanic ignorance!

As mentioned earlier, my daughter, a contract Special Education specialist (published, and multiply degreed, BTW, earnin' far in excess of most teachers directly employed by school districts in her area) is in Georgia, while I'm in Wisconsin.

Having a bachelor's and a master's is not "multiply degreed," and, I hope you are using published in the right way.

Your daughter hates her fellow teachers. An odd position for a special ed teacher. She was probably brainwashed at home or was she one of those young women who originally caused my brother to turn from a career in special ed? Tom would have begun teaching just as the so-called baby bust began school. Many of his college classmates elected to major in special ed, not out of dedication, but to get a job.