Not all students are capable of honors/AP work

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The conservative critics of American education -- the folks who have it squarely in solar plexus with the No Child Left Behind program -- continually scream that American schools have gone to hell in handbasket.

When it is pointed out to them that teaching in many areas (foreign language, science and math) is superior today to the teaching they received; when they are told that some kids just aren't smart; when they are asked to explain how two children can sit next to each other in the same classroom(s) for years and yet manifest markedly different levels of accomplishment, these conservative critics somehow say those people confronting them are whining liberals. Sigh!

Last week, I substituted for the teacher of an Advanced Placement English class. I have previously substituted for the man who offers all of the advanced placement and honors level chemistry and physics classes.

These students are remarkable. They are mature, humorous, friendly, bright and dedicated. Guess what? They still get things wrong but they are supposed to get somethings wrong: they are still in high school!

Most of the students at this school take classes at the C-1 level: college prep.

That means they work at grade level; can write a five paragraph essay; can create a scientific hypothesis and the design the experiment to prove it; are capable of solving multi-step math programs and can develop hypothesis in the social sciences.

In this school, their SAT scores are above the state mean which is above the national mean.

Occassionally, there are behavior problems in the C1 classes; they may lie to their teachers; they may neglect their homework. Those things rarely occur in the AP and honors classes.

Where is this going?

THE CONSERVATIVE CRITICS OF EDUCATION THINK AND EXPECT ALL STUDENTS TO BE CAPABLE OF HONORS AND AP WORK.

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE. THIS IS A PUBLIC SCHOOL. MOST KIDS ARE EDUCATED IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN THEIR OWN TOWNS. THERE ARE NO REQUIREMENTS FOR ENTRY OTHER THAN RESIDENCY.

GUESS WHAT? SOME OF THEIR PARENTS ARE STUPID AND LAZY AND MAKE FOOLS OF THEMSELVES IN PUBLIC. THESE ARE NORMAL PEOPLE.

IT WOULD BE NICE IF ALL KIDS WERE CAPABLE OF AP WORK BUT THEY AREN'T. WERE THEY, THAN AP WORK WOULD SIMPLY BE STANDARD.

CONSERVATIVE CRITICS OF EDUCATION ARE TALKING OUT OF THEIR HATS.

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Find me ONE example of a "conservative critic" that has said that they expect that all students in public schools are capable of honors and/or AP work - just one.

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plainoldme- That brush with which you painted your view is so broad, that it could paint a barn in one swath, and some of the paint would end up on the grass.

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I'm not often onside with plainoldme, but I hear part of what she's saying. I hear people at work, and many of my friends, talking about their kids - and they all seem to think their kids should be able to go to university. Well, they just aren't all that intellectually gifted, and no amount of education is going to change that. A teacher/school system can not make a kid smart.

A student can be challenged to make their very best effort - but it's not going to change their innate abilities.

Sometimes I just wanna say (but don't) " T just isn't that smart. Leave him alone. Let him get a job that he'll be happy at. Stop torturing him and the rest of us."

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ehBeth- I absolutely agree with you. I have been telling people for years that our country have become so "educentric" (is that a word?..well, now it is). that we have devalued the trades, and the crafts. As a result, America has a dearth of skilled trades and crafts people.

Young people who are good with their hands are being forced into an academic mold of which they have little interest, or aptitude.

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THE CONSERVATIVE CRITICS OF EDUCATION THINK AND EXPECT ALL STUDENTS TO BE CAPABLE OF HONORS AND AP WORK.

The quote by POM is what I am railing against. I don't know where she got that idea. It is true, that young people need to have basic skills in math and English to succeed at anything in this world, but I don't think that anyone is suggesting that all students need or are even capable of working at an honors or AP level.

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Grrr. Just typed for two hours and the whole thing disappeared. Will return later.

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ehBeth wrote:

Well, I don't know where it comes from politically, Phoenix, but I think there is a fairly big group of people who really believe that if the teachers were better, every kid would be an honour student.

Well, I think that if there were better teachers, they would know how to motivate and maximize the capabilities of their students. Unfortunately, there are not that many truly great teachers.

Saying that, I think that the best teacher in the world could not produce a class of honor students, unless the kids had the basic material in them to start with!

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Find me ONE example of a "conservative critic" that has said that they expect that all students in public schools are capable of honors and/or AP work - just one

fishin'

By critic, I do not exclusively mean a paid professional (journalist; politician) whose job it is to criticize elements of society and/or find solutions to the problems they perceive, but rather those like contributors to forums like this who rattle on; dodge all answers then hold on to their original opinion.

The criticism of schools -- for which the only solution is standardized testing -- is so pervasive that when I began substitute teaching three years ago, I was shocked to find the reality was the opposite of what I heard.

Listening to and reading these folks for three years; answering their charges with facts and logic and then hearing them re-iterate their original opinion made me dizzy until last week, when I taught an AP English class and realized that for the critics, this is the only acceptable model.

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plainoldme- That brush with which you painted your view is so broad, that it could paint a barn in one swath, and some of the paint would end up on the grass.

Phoenix -- See above. My statement is the distillation of long years of thought and argument and it isn't my brush that is broad.

Consider being confronted by a man at the News Shop in the center of town, who has asked you (because he is flirting with you) what you do for a living. After I say that I'm a teacher, he then goes on to say the kids aren't learning today. So you tell him about some exciting work the kids are doing. He listens with rapt enthusiasm then tells you what his grandchildren are doing, and, frankly, it sounds exciting and advanced. He then says, "who knows what they teach in school today. The kids aren't learning. Things are terrible."

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Sure, some kids just aren't that smart. I told Timberlandko on another thread that some kids just didn't have the genetic material and he accused me of suggesting we're devolving -- those weren't his words, just what he was trying to say.

Some kids only work at what they're interested in. Sometimes, adversity gets in their way but, at other times, adversity propels kids toward success.

I know what kids failed the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment Survey (MCAS) at Arlington High School. Some simply don't have it upstairs. Some are like the kids who inspired the movie, "Blackboard Jungle" or the television show, "Welcome back, Cotter." One has had major brain surgery and others have neural and emotional problems. Some have only been in this country two years and don't have sufficient English.

On the other hand, 77% of the class of 2004 from this school was accepted at four-year colleges. Their mean SAT score is 1082, higher than the state average of 1041, which is higher than the national mean, 1026.

Look at those figures. For what it is worth, Boston Magazine ranked this high school 29 in a field of 151. Everything here is above average. Doesn't that say to you that the MCAS is an expensive redundancy?

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Quote:
THE CONSERVATIVE CRITICS OF EDUCATION THINK AND EXPECT ALL STUDENTS TO BE CAPABLE OF HONORS AND AP WORK.

The quote by POM is what I am railing against. I don't know where she got that idea.

Phoenix -- After listening to the prattle of critics, this is the only conclusion I can come to.

Now, when I was in college (1965-69), despite the fact that the Vietnam was raging and the civil rights movement was evolving and Woodstock was just about to happen, most of the kids were apolitical. Most adults are apolitical. They just didn't care.

I went to grad school immediately and studied education and English at a very large state university that leaned further left than my college, but the times were hotter.

The funny thing is the left was criticizing education then. The left wing students wanted to improve and reform education from the top down by becoming teachers who were better informed than the ones who taught them. The centrists and the righties wanted things to stay as they were. Some were happy to major in education and teach until they married or their fiance finished law or med school.

Now, I have seen some right wing critics who are activists, but not in the same way my fellow students were. These people actually stole things from their opposition! And there are the Christian fundamentalists with their Creationism/Intelligent Design campaign. Those aren't the types I am concerned with. I'm talking about the armchair quarterback types who prefer to rant and not learn whether their point of view is valid.

No matter how much material you present, demonstrating that the state of education has always been open to criticism (unless the glass is half empty, no one bothers to ask for more) but that today's schools are much better than they think they are, these critics refuse to listen.

As I said, after teaching an AP class, I realized these critics want perfection.

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Well, I don't know where it comes from politically, Phoenix, but I think there is a fairly big group of people who really believe that if the teachers were better, every kid would be an honour student.

At the present time, the broad brush is splattering the teachers' unions. When I've asked those declaiming the unions why, they are never able to answer. They're on the right on other matters, like bush, the war, what they perceive to be big govt, etc. They're the folks behind standardized testing.

These tests have been criticized from the center and left for being poorly constructed and the products of for profit businesses. I just wish people who support the test would take them!

Enough of this now: will return later.

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plainoldme wrote:

Find me ONE example of a "conservative critic" that has said that they expect that all students in public schools are capable of honors and/or AP work - just one

fishin'

By critic, I do not exclusively mean a paid professional (journalist; politician) whose job it is to criticize elements of society and/or find solutions to the problems they perceive, but rather those like contributors to forums like this who rattle on; dodge all answers then hold on to their original opinion.

And you've done an admirable job of dodging the challenge, rattling on and holding to your original opinion right here.

YOU claimed that it was "conservative critics or education" that were pushing this idea that every child was capabale of honors and/or AP class work and now you can't find even one single example????

I think it's fairly evident who is talking through their hat here...

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fishin -- Really, if you can read McGentrix and Timberlandko and think that I am talking through my hat, then you are hopeless. Besides, since I can and do substantiate a position that I came through by direct observation and not by listening to bush, why should I change my mind and stop being right?

You've nothing to say to the utter waste of money MCAS is in a town where graduating students attend college at nearly three times the national average with SAT scores significantly above the national average.
Why not?

Please, if you bother to reply, be sensible, otherwise, find another way to occupy your time: you make no sense and I've better things to do.

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plainoldme wrote:

fishin -- Really, if you can read McGentrix and Timberlandko and think that I am talking through my hat, then you are hopeless. Besides, since I can and do substantiate a position that I came through by direct observation and not by listening to bush, why should I change my mind and stop being right?

Why should you stop being right? Maybe one day when you finally are right you'll figure it out. Here's a newflash for you - you haven't been right yet. You started this thread with bogus claims and, as usual, you can't back them up with any sort of proof at all.

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You've nothing to say to the utter waste of money MCAS is in a town where graduating students attend college at nearly three times the national average with SAT scores significantly above the national average.
Why not?

And you still haven't addressed the very simple questions that were directed to you. Why not?

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I took Honor classes while in high school, as well as AP classes. Now, you cannot even consider comparing the two programmes.
The work in an AP class is insane because you're basically doing college work and high school work at a faster pace. I received 90's and more, therefore I was promoted to AP classes. I took AP Biology, AP European History and AP English Lit and Language. I must say that English Lit is the worse of all. You don't have time to read the tons of novels and short stories, but rather take a quick glance. The writing is overwhelming. From all the general writing, we had to also write Critical Lens essays, as well as analysis. To make matters worse, I got a 2 on my AP exam, lost my money and received a 75 on the class.
I actually failed the first semester in Bio.
At the end, I managed to get a 4 on my AP Bio exam and a 5 on my European History exam, which is terrific and well-deserved.
What could I have differently? I could've taken one AP class.
But if anyone is planning to take an AP class, think about it first.

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I have not received updates from this thread.

fishin -- Frankly, thinking about the nonsense spewed in support of standardized testing -- of which the Massachusetts' test is one of the better examples -- made it abundantly clear that supporters of this sort thing think that unless kids achieve at the old 1400 level of the SAT, they fail. Sinple. Straightforward. Obvious.

They suggest "solutions" to the problem of education that are already in place and have been for the past 30 years, like having teachers observed by their principals and dept. chairs.

They seem to deny that sort of kid who fails these tests today is the same kid that was known as a "hood" during the 1950s . . . or is a kid whose IQ is lower than average . . . or is a kid who just doesn't care.

During the latest round of MCAS retesting, 20 kids were retested for English and just under 40 for math. There was some overlap, but, frankly, I didn't pay that much attention when I worked preparing the test materials for the kids. In this same school, 77% of the class of 2004 went off to four-year colleges and another 10% to junior colleges and other forms of training. That means that more than 87% took the SAT (some took the test, then delayed college admission or decided not to attend). These kids on average scored higher than the Massachusetts mean, which is higher than the national mean.

Why waste the time and money on MCAS here in Arlington? The kids are already demonstrating superiority. As for the few that fail, punishing the school for their failure is ridiculous.

But, you are the one avoiding answering. Why not find a better way to improve education than simply offering a redundant test? Why demand that everyone pass?

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Duke -- My daughter, a middle school French and Spanish teacher, feels the real solution to education is to teach to the honors level, but I know she only says that when she is upset by critics.

BTW, while she took no AP classes in high school, she did take German at Harvard Summer School. It was an 8-credit class, which means she took what her high school would have offered in four years in 8 weeks. Without prior knowledge of German, she ended up with a 69 average, one point short of a C. She felt good about it. She said that she learned 69% of the material. She was 15 years old.

AP classes were just beginning when I was in high school. I actually took what would by AP biology today, although it was not called that then.

I'm sorry that you feel badly about your own high school experience.
As for the writing, despite my defense of the education my own children had, I think that my high school experience included more writing and reading than the kids do here at Arlington HS. We had to read four books during the summer and a book each month during the academic year in addition to the work we did together as a class. While we did not re-write papers, it seems to me that we wrote more than these kids do. How do your AP classes compare to my so-called college prep classes?

Consider that the work load at different colleges varies. When I was in grad school in English at Detroit's Wayne State University, during an 11 week term, I had to read 6 Shaw plays and their prologues for a class in the playwright, while for a class in "20th C. Jewish writers," I was assigned 10 novels. A friend in grad school at the University of Detroit, would read three novels during a 16-week semester. Dissastified with U-D, he transferred.

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plainoldme wrote:

fishin -- Frankly, thinking about the nonsense spewed in support of standardized testing -- of which the Massachusetts' test is one of the better examples -- made it abundantly clear that supporters of this sort thing think that unless kids achieve at the old 1400 level of the SAT, they fail. Sinple. Straightforward. Obvious.

They suggest "solutions" to the problem of education that are already in place and have been for the past 30 years, like having teachers observed by their principals and dept. chairs.

They seem to deny that sort of kid who fails these tests today is the same kid that was known as a "hood" during the 1950s . . . or is a kid whose IQ is lower than average . . . or is a kid who just doesn't care.

They, they they! Who exactly is "they"???? You keep wanting to point fingers yet you haven't been able to substantiate a single one of your claims yet. You continue to make generalizations about "they" yet you can't show any evidence that ANYONE thinks what you seem to think they think.

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Why waste the time and money on MCAS here in Arlington? The kids are already demonstrating superiority.

For one thing, the results of those tests are a part of the funding formula devised by your state legislature for determinig how much state and federal $$ the schools in Arlington get. I suspect the Arligton school Superintendent would rather have students take the tests and get the $$ than not get anything.

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But, you are the one avoiding answering. Why not find a better way to improve education than simply offering a redundant test? Why demand that everyone pass?

Who is demanding that everyone pass? I certianly don't care if everyone passes. If they don't pass however, they shouldn't be getting handed a diploma that says that they did.

As for the tests being redundent - why not ask why the SATs and ACTs ever became necessary? If primary and secondary schools could have been trusted to actually educate the students the colleges wouldn't have had any need for SAT/ACT tests.

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plainoldme wrote:

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Duke -- My daughter, a middle school French and Spanish teacher, feels the real solution to education is to teach to the honors level, but I know she only says that when she is upset by critics.

BTW, while she took no AP classes in high school, she did take German at Harvard Summer School. It was an 8-credit class, which means she took what her high school would have offered in four years in 8 weeks. Without prior knowledge of German, she ended up with a 69 average, one point short of a C. She felt good about it. She said that she learned 69% of the material. She was 15 years old.

AP classes were just beginning when I was in high school. I actually took what would by AP biology today, although it was not called that then.

I'm sorry that you feel badly about your own high school experience.
As for the writing, despite my defense of the education my own children had, I think that my high school experience included more writing and reading than the kids do here at Arlington HS. We had to read four books during the summer and a book each month during the academic year in addition to the work we did together as a class. While we did not re-write papers, it seems to me that we wrote more than these kids do. How do your AP classes compare to my so-called college prep classes?

Consider that the work load at different colleges varies. When I was in grad school in English at Detroit's Wayne State University, during an 11 week term, I had to read 6 Shaw plays and their prologues for a class in the playwright, while for a class in "20th C. Jewish writers," I was assigned 10 novels. A friend in grad school at the University of Detroit, would read three novels during a 16-week semester. Dissastified with U-D, he transferred.

Indeed, I took German all throughout High School and it wasn't that simple. My teacher always said that it is best if you learn German young. If you want to learn German you have to dedicate yourself; eight weeks won't get you anywhere lol
How did your daughter get into the Harvard Summer school programme? Is there a certain prerequisite you must have?
My experience at high school was fine. The only mistake I made was going overboard with the AP classes. Here in North Country schools, you can be eligible to take an AP class only if your over average is above 90 in an Honors class. I don't know if it's different in other states. My dream was to get into Harvard but I screwed all that up. My AP grades were fair, but not good enough.
My AP English class required lots of reading a writing. We read over 7 novels in the semester. We read about 10 short stories in a week, then write an analysis and a summary. The same thing with all the other novels.
I don't know about your English professor, but mine was fond of Critical Lens essays. That's all he mostly discussed. Good times. Smile

AP European History was my favorite. I received a high mark on that one.
How is the school system in TX these days?
I heard math levels is very low.

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Not all students are capable of honors/AP work

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