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Unions Make the Middle Class. Without Unions, the Middle Class Withers.

 
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 05:16 pm
@RABEL222,
We have a tradition and laws protecting our freedom of association. No one can be forced to, join or pay dues to, an organization against their will. There are, of course, major violations of those principles. Though the Taft Hartley Act outlawed "Closed Shop" union contracts, many states enacted so called "fair representation" laws requiring employees who are not members of unions representing their employer to pay costs supposedly based on the raw costs of representation to these unions. In practice these charges are more or less identical to the dues. A second and little noticed violation occurred when the Federal Government unionized major parts of the employee base of various Federal Departments without any consent from or canvassing of these employees.

Meanwhile union membership among private sector companies has declined sharply, mostly because established unionized companies have found it very difficult to compete either in cost or product quality with union - free competitors, and secondly because for the past three decades nearly all new manufacturing company startups have been in Right t0 Work states which forbid forced membership or payment to unions.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 05:35 pm
@georgeob1,
And a lack of unions let people like you fire anyone who disagrees with you. You also control wages which enable you to transfer the savings of your company into your compensation. I have noted that you become quite upset at people who contradict what you say. I guess the inability to fire them galls you.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 06:11 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

And a lack of unions let people like you fire anyone who disagrees with you. You also control wages which enable you to transfer the savings of your company into your compensation. I have noted that you become quite upset at people who contradict what you say. I guess the inability to fire them galls you.

There's lots of law out there limiting arbitrary firing of employees such as you describe. Note also the differences between my post above and your reply to it. My post was a factual recitation of the laws and practices both limiting and facilitating union membership. Yours, in stark contrast, was a mostly substance free personal attack, based on your imaginings and speculations about things you can't possibly know.

That's the hallmark of ignorance and stupidity.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 07:20 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Meanwhile union membership among private sector companies has declined sharply, mostly because established unionized companies have found it very difficult to compete either in cost or product quality with union - free competitors
This would lead to a decline in Union heavy companies. You could argue that indirectly affects overall union membership (if those companies fold), but not a direct cause. Your "mostly because" statement is then incredibly dubious without further explanation.

Quote:
and secondly because for the past three decades nearly all new manufacturing company startups have been in Right t0 Work states which forbid forced membership or payment to unions.
Better

Still ignores all the other forces out there, presenting it as a simplistic matter...
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 07:29 pm
If progressives succeed in raising the minimum wage high enough, right to work will mean much less.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 09:25 pm
@edgarblythe,
Perhaps you ought to clarify why it will mean much less in those circumstances. I could take it to mean 'there will be less jobs', but it's not certain that's what you mean.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 09:28 pm
@vikorr,
I mean, if they have to pay just as much in right to work states as in other states there is not so much incentive to locate businesses in right to work over other places.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Aug, 2019 09:41 pm
@edgarblythe,
Thanks for the clarification
0 Replies
 
Jewels Vern
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2019 03:16 am
@vikorr,
Everything you have said adds up to "reputation". Then you think about how many times union bigwigs have been caught raiding the retirement funds and that makes them unacceptable.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2019 05:23 am
Unions, just like big business have to be regulated, to weed out fraud.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2019 09:28 am
For the most part Labor Unions today are an anachronism. Nearly all of the significant gains they established for workers a century or more ago have since been universally incorporated into law or universal social & business practice. Today unions are for the most part a parasite living off the usually forced contributions of their members. Without such requirements to join or pay, unions quickly lose their membership by the voluntary actions of their (former) members.

Some union groups, the Building and Construction Trades (i.e, steel, electrical & construction workers) continue through government enacted requirements for "union shops" for government (Federal, State or Local) funded projects. In some cases,such as New York & New Jersey. they operate as closed monopolies, restricting access by workers other than their chosen members, and, through various other payoffs, sharply raise the cost of construction there.

Federal government unions have no purpose or function at all, in that our civil service law already provides all the employee benefits unions seek and even greater employment protection than they provide. Despite this about one in seven Federal employees is a Union "Shop Steward" who works for the union with a salary paid by the government. The overall cost of this and the union dues added to the salaries of all employees, to the taxpaying public is truly enormous.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2019 10:38 am
@georgeob1,
Unions are the only protection workers have against the demands of big business. Proof? The fact that big business men like you have had your hired hand, congress, tie the hand of unions with regressive laws but let big business's got away with breaking any laws they want to. If a union member steals union funds they send him to jail for 20 years. When a big business man steals company funds he spends a year in a country club playing golf. Unions are tightly regulated and bad Mouthed by government and unethical people like you who work to reduce the ability of people to earn a descent living because of big business greed.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2019 03:17 pm
@Jewels Vern,
Quote:
Everything you have said adds up to "reputation". Then you think about how many times union bigwigs have been caught raiding the retirement funds and that makes them unacceptable.
Of course. The only product a Union 'sells' it what it can achieve for / how it can look after its members.

That means reputation is a huge bonus, or hurdle to obtaining membership. Reputation wise things that may be a bonus, or hurdle to recruitment include:
- How a Union conducts it's business (ie. the reputation it gains for how it conducts its business)
- How competent the Union is (and it's reputation for such)
- Perception of level of altruism for the workers (like your example of corrupt bosses)
- The 'public motives' of the Union (ie. the marketed perception, or News, or politically driven perception)
- How well known the Union is (well known is often newsworthy. That can work for, or against organisations)


Unions reputations are essential to their membership 'health. Undermine their reputation you will undermine membership. The more angles you can undermine their reputation from (or that they undermine it themselves), the more you will undermine membership.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2019 03:37 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
For the most part Labor Unions today are an anachronism.
How many things can you list that a Union does, without doing some research?

By the way, 'gains' made when things are way out of balance are often more spectacular.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2019 04:47 pm
The Teamsters took good care of me, at one time. If Sanders gets elected, he will work to restore unions. They are the best bulwark against business bullying.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2019 05:41 pm
@edgarblythe,
Did you participate in their pension plan? Jimmy Hoffa knowingly outsourced it's management to the Mafia, and it was a very lucrative source of illicit revenue for them for well over a decade. Doesn't sound like "good care" to me
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2019 05:57 pm
@georgeob1,
I didn't make a career of it.
You can point out the foibles of people in any enterprise where big money can be stolen. That doesn't mean the underlying good of, in this instance, unions is negated. It just means greed has to be policed.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Aug, 2019 06:08 pm
@edgarblythe,
Yep, that criticism...being applied as a wide swath...must also apply as a wide swath to business...if he doesn't wish to be hypocritical.
0 Replies
 
Jewels Vern
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Aug, 2019 02:12 am
@edgarblythe,
Get serious. "Regulation" always turns into protection, at least until a group begins to overshadow the government. Then they break it up.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Aug, 2019 09:18 am
@Jewels Vern,
You've got your regulations and you've got oppression. You have to choose wisely, like any conscientious nation does.
0 Replies
 
 

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