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"Ontologically real"

 
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 10:37 pm
Is this notion of "deep sleep" (turiya) synonymous with "samadhi"?
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twyvel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 04:26 am
of. There are what we call sensations that are interpreted as a body, ever changing and repeating etc.

So there's no body to do any sleeping, nor of course no ego -self. There is the observation of certain sensations that are interpreted as falling asleep that stop occurring. And then there are certain sensations which appear that are observed and understood as waking up. But our interpretations are wrong, that is, they are interpretations that buy into samsara; take it to be real, naïve realism.

Ergo, there is no walking or running etc. for the same reason as above. There is only sensations that are understood as running or walking. etc. And of course there is no where to run to, Smile It's like being on a tread mill, the ground passes by, the buildings and clouds pass by etc., but there's no one going no where.

Sages often say, "You are not your body"….of course not, What body?

Though some such as Ramana say, "I have no body"….
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twyvel
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 04:35 am
Here are the seven levels of Consciousness according to Himalayan Yoga


1. Waking / Conscious / Vaishvaanara / Gross

2. Transition / Unmani

3. Dreaming / unconscious

4. Transition / Aladani

5. Deep sleep / Subconscious / Prajna / Causal

6. Samadhi

7. Turiya / Consciousness / Absolute

http://swamij.com/om.htm
BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 08:55 am
Re: "Simplifying the simple"
odd...
Paul Andrew Bourne, MSc. (candidate); BSc. (Hons); Dip. Edu., seems to have disappeared from the conversation.

in case he to returns, i would like to note that if he wishes to place his 'title' before each post, it might be advisable to have someone go over the post and correct the grammar prior to entering it!

For example:

paul andrew bourne wrote:
By Paul Andrew Bourne, MSc. (candidate); BSc. (Hons); Dip. Edu.

Society members have come to accept those things that they socialized to recognized as is. In history, the ontology was that the world was flat and that was a truth. After the discovery made by Christopher Columbus, the truth that the world was flat changes to that it is round. The truth that we have come to accept may one day be falsified by more discoveries. Therefore, an antology is not limited by time, space or any other magnitude because it is so. Many of the things that we have come to appreciate and accept within our defined space is supported by the acedemics of the date. If and when more findings refute those positions of the day that situation give rise to an anomaly. When more academics study this irregularities, this gives rise to new theorizing.

It follows, therefore, that many of the things that hold true today are not real but socially constructed because of time and space, and the availability of resources that are available to man. The word water is socially construct, that is it was given it name by man. As such, how are we absolute sure water is water? This same theorizing can be used to apply to other things within our socialized space.


try:

Members of society have come to accept those things that they are socialized to recognized as is. In history, the ontology was that the world was flat and that was a truth. After the discovery made by Galileo, the truth, that the world was flat, was changed to it's being round. The truth that we have come to accept, may one day be enlightened by further discoveries. Therefore, an ontology (or anthology?) is not limited by time, space or any other factor because it is so. Many of the things that we have come to appreciate and accept, within our defined space, are supported by the current academics. If and when more findings refute those positions, that will give rise to an anomaly. More academics studying these irregularities will give rise to new theorizing.............etc. etc.

there is still very little content, but it would be nice if it could be read and understood.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 09:40 am
BoGoWo, don't you suspect that Bourne is speaking English as a second language, and that his or her use of titles reflects the rules of a dilfferent culture?
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 12:38 pm
Apparently he doesn't. But seriously, what's the deal with that? I'm just curious as to why he would start with his title. Maybe it is so that less serious participants will be discouraged by the formality invoked by the title.

That title always gets me thinking about the two twin detectives in the tintin comics. Don't know why.

And Paul Andrew Bourne, no insult intended.
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theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 10:26 pm
Thankyou for your post Val. I read it with interest, but unfortunately, you're mistaking the medium for the message. English is a subjective language. When I say the word universe in english it becomes a subjective term. What you need to realise is that I'm using it as a pointer to say "an objective nature of reality exists".

This is immediately obvious to anyone who uses a logic tree. After all, if the universe consists of only subjective viewpoints, then the fact that it only consists of subjective viewpoints is an objective nature of reality Wink Think about it.

Quote:
Using your own distinction, I don't see any difference between the "theoretical truth" and the "factual truth".


Have you considered that you might be using them incorrectly?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2005 12:02 am
Antibuddha, you are agreeing with Tywvel (and me) that all experiences and understandings are perspectivistic.
Also, as I've said a number of times, all experience is subjective; without consciousness there is, for us, nothing, and that is an objective fact.
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bayinghound
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2005 02:42 am
Re: "Simplifying the simple"
paul andrew bourne wrote:
In history, the ontology was that the world was flat and that was a truth. After the discovery made by Christopher Columbus, the truth that the world was flat changes to that it is round. The truth that we have come to accept may one day be falsified by more discoveries. Therefore, an antology is not limited by time, space or any other magnitude because it is so.


This is an odd use of "ontology" ... "The science of the study of being; that part of metaphysics which relates to the nature or essence of being or existence."

That aside, Positivists would say the "out there" is the things-in-themselves which are being perceived by us imperfectly. As our perception changes, our sense of what is true about the things-in-themselves changes with that change. Since we can never know the things-in-themselves for what they are "truly" ontologically, we can never do better than that.

So, "is water, water?" Yes and no. The thing signified by the word water is in fact that thing which we call "water." Is our understanding of water perfect and complete? No. Could it be radically different than our understanding of it? Yes. Could it not be an independent or singular entity or "thing" entirely? Yes.

Isn't this pretty basic, though, for a masters candidate in the philosophy of science?
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val
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2005 03:54 am
antibuddha

You said:
"This is immediately obvious to anyone who uses a logic tree. After all, if the universe consists of only subjective viewpoints, then the fact that it only consists of subjective viewpoints is an objective nature of reality Wink Think about it."

For many years I have been thinking about it. And my answer is "yes", although I don't like very much to use words as "objective" and "subjective". Reality is our human experience. Reality to us, humans. Factual truth - or objective truth - is the experience we have, as we have it. Theoretical truth are the explanations, theories we give to that experience. Indeed, when we experience things, we are already using "theories" about things, due to our education, language.
Saying that we only see little bright lights in the dark, not stars, is already a conceptualized experience.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2005 11:05 am
But does ontology recapitulate phylogeny?

<kidding>
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theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2005 10:17 pm
val wrote:
Reality is our human experience. Reality to us, humans. Factual truth - or objective truth - is the experience we have, as we have it.


Mmmmm, I like that. It's different to what I'm saying but yeah, I respect that point of view a lot. Thankyou for giving me something very interesting to ponder.

Always look forward to your posts Val, even when we disagree Wink
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2005 10:20 pm
I can make 143 words out of ontology recapitulates phylogeny
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val
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2005 04:30 am
farmerman

I doubt you can. Unless, for example, you know what being a plant is.
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bayinghound
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 01:19 pm
1. on
2. to
3. too
4. cap
5. phrenology
6. lactate
...
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 08:37 pm
There may be someone here that didn't get that as a riff on "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny", but I am guessing not.
That one is probably even better for word games..
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bayinghound
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 12:58 am
just encouraging farmerman to post all 143 is all.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 04:33 pm
It got it Osso. It was clever, but I never encourage punsters and mimes Laughing
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JLNobody
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 03:20 pm
@twyvel,
Hi, Twyvel. I've missed your thinking. What have you been doing these past years?
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 06:16 pm
@JLNobody,
You're responding to Twyvel from three years ago. You're going to have to type louder.
 

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