Confused and Soulsearching.

I am a Buddhist, not a Christian. I have always found parts of the Bible amusing though it does contain some profound wisdom. I don't think the Bible should be taken literally by any means. The Bible was handed down word of mouth for countless generations before it was put into writing. I'm sure a lot of the true meaning and actual text has been lost throughout this time. I always had trouble with the Adam and Eve story. Incest is wrong, of course, but the Bible suggests that we would not exist EXCEPT for incest. Cain and Able had no sisters so how did they reproduce? Noah was a bit of a scoundrel who engaged in deviant sexual acts yet he was chosen by God to save the world. Even the first words in the Bible "IN the beginning..." - what was going on before that?

Hi Deb,

As I see it, the Bible is not a history book. It's a spiritual book, teaching spiritual truths. You don't have to believe that Genesis is a literal historical account of the world in order to believe that the Bible is divinely inspired and that it contains the Word of God. The Bible is full of imagery, metaphors and parables. It surely isn't written in stone that every letter of it is to be interpreted literally. The Bible should be understood from a spiritual context with aid of the Holy Spirit, with whose help a spiritual understanding can be attained.

As for the differences in interpretation of various Bible passages, it's of course a result of the imperfections of human reasoning, erroneous assumptions and such. No two persons understand things exactly the same. Each and every one of us are biassed, see things from different perspectives based on numerous conditions, such as heritage, environment, etc. Don't let this be a stumbling block to your faith, though. Regardless how man interprets the Bible, God is still God; changeless and ever perfect. Just do your best to act in accordance with His love and wisdom, and I'm sure you'll be fine. To God it's the intention that counts. If you sincerely seek the truth, God guides you towards it, step by step. Inevitably we make mistakes once in a while, but for as long as love and truth is the motives behind our actions, and for as long as we acknowledge our mistakes/sins after we've committed them and repent, we are still on the right way.

As for that last paragraph from 2Timothy etc, I wouldn't agree that it is a contradiction. Let's say two unbelievers are married, and one of them comes to faith. Then what Paul says about that there should be no divorce certainly applies, and it would not be discrepant with the other statement.

Finally, I would suggest that you pray a lot for strengthened faith and for your husband's conversion. The power of prayer should never be underestimated. True faith is not about intellectual belief in a book after all. Be patient, and never forget the fathomless love of God when doubts afflict you. I wish you well!

Questioning is good... it's a hard process, but in the end good. I have my own beliefs on the matter, but they are for me. Take your time and make up your own mind. I can maybe give you some advise on the issues but in the end it's up to you what you wish to believe.


I am glad to hear that you're not accepting evolution because to you some of it doesn't make sense. It shows that you've got a questioning instinct and aren't willing to just take people's word on things. Now, forgive me for putting this so bluntly, but if you've been living in a christian lifestyle for most of your life I doubt you actually know much about evolution besides the strawman version that many bible colleges teach about to disuade people from considering it. In order for it to make sense you'll need to learn a bit more about it. Then think it over and see if it answers your questions, if not, then don't accept evolution as an answer until it DOES make sense. Just make sure you apply that same questioning instinct to everything and you'll come out fine in the end.

If you want to learn more about evolution get the hardcopy book "The blind watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins. It's not in gibberish (well, not most of it) and it's pretty clear. Just, try not to get too bored in the bits were he waffles on. He does that a little, but it's probably one of the better books on evolution you'll find. (don't read origin of species unless you're a masochist, it's something like 150 years old and about half of it is out of date).

Or alternatively if you have any questions about evolution I can attempt to answer them for you, I'm certainly not an expert but I am quite familiar with the basic concepts.


I can't find many christians who have even read the entire bible personally. I know the bible better than most christians I talk to and since I'm not a christian I think that's pretty sad.

Best of luck in your process. If there's anything I can do for you let me know.

Firstly, I would suggest that you don't go to the church to learn science e.g., evoltion or to science to learn to be spiritual. The science of the church is always out of date, and the conservative church accepts scientific facts only begrudgingly and when it becomes absurd to do otherwise. If you lived 350 years ago, the science of the day would have agreed with the church that the Earth was the center of the universe; however, Galileo at about that time proved otherwise. I don't know how long it took the church to accept this fact, one or two centuries or longer. Can you afford to wait for church doctrine to catch up with science? Beware of any church that warns you against the freedom of an open mind.

If you truly have questions and an open mind, I would highly suggest reading Joseph Campbell's, "The Power of Myth." By examining the myths of other cultures and religions we can appreciate the similarities of their myths to the Christian myths and symbols. You don't have to take myths and symbols literally to be a deeply spiritual person and a true Christian.

All of you have been wonderful with your input. I thank you for not being confrontational, but being open with my questions and concerns. I just finished reading my post and your responses with my husband, and I think we will be checking out the two books mentioned. Please don't stop writing. I am learning A LOT!

Deborah

Iamdeb- Welcome to A2K!

I think that you are doing wonderfully. The way towards developing a mature world view is to keep on questioning. The Bible contains a lot of wisdom, and is the cornerstone of our culture. But it is, by no means, the end-all. IMO, it is a book, written by primitive peoples, attempting to make some sense out of this world of ours. It is a monumental achievement, but cannot, by a thinking person, be taken at face value.

I think that coluber2001 has given you a great idea. Joseph Campbell was a wonderful teacher. I remember when his "Power of Myth" series was on PBS many years ago. Check out the book. I think that it will be en eye opener for you!

P.S. Just for the hell of it, I checked out whether this title is on DVD. I never thought that it would be. But it is!



Link to Campbell's "The Power of Myth" DVD

Hi Deb!
I wanted to reply to your three areas of concern. I am not a scholar, I'm just a person who has done some searching also.
The first one I'd like to respond to is your third one-about equally yoked and Paul's writings. I think he's saying that we should try not to become unequally yoked with someone we meet and possibly marry. And the part about when you are married to an non-believer...Paul is talking to a person who was an non-believer when they got married to an non-believer and THEN became a believer while married. He was telling them now that they are unequally yoked they should NOT divorce the nonbeliever. That's where it talks about the non-believer being sanctified.
The second point, about finding a church that doesn't change or twist scripture to benfit itself. It is hard to find a consistent church. The churches that say things like: it's a sin to dance and things like that are legalistic. That is what Jesus condemned the Pharisees about. They required people to 'do' things to become holy when they overlooked the important part, the heart-the relationship with their God. You don't have to do 'things' to be holy or to be a Christian, you just have to believe that Jesus is who He said He was.
And your third concern, I'm not sure exactly how the world got populated ??? But I also marvel at the detail in which we were made. The bible says that God knows every detail about us while we are in the womb.
Anyway I hope this helps!!!

Hi Deb!
If you want to know more about the bible talk to people who study the bible, people who support it. You wouldn't go to a Christian to find the best answers about Buddah, would you?
Not all people who call themselves Christians are living completely as the bible would encourage. Not all Muslums live exactly as the Koran suggests.

Hi Deb.

Without addressing the issues brought up by others that have posted here (obviously we could engage each other in an argument that would take up pages and pages, but that wouldn't really accomplish the goal of informing you as much as it would be just arguing), let me just jump in and answer some of your questions.



"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned" (Rom. 5:12)

We read in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Adam was "the first man." God did not start by making a whole group of men.

The Bible makes it clear that only the descendants of Adam can be saved. Romans 5 teaches that we sin because Adam sinned. The death penalty, which Adam received as judgement for his sin of rebellion, also passed on to all his descendants.

Since Adam was the head of the human race when he "fell," we who were in the loins of Adam "fell" also. Thus, we are all separated from God. The final consequence of sin would be separation from God in our sinful state forever. Of course this is where salvation through Jesus comes in, and all that good jazz. You probably know all of this, since you obviously have a religious background.

So, how did Adam and Eve's offspring procreate to continue the human race?

Well, Cain was the first child of Adam and Eve recorded in Scripture (Gen. 4:1). He and his brothers, Abel (Gen. 4:2) and Seth (Gen. 4:25) were part of the first generation of children ever born on this earth. Even though only these three males are mentioned by name, Adam and Eve had other children. In Genesis 5:4 a statement sums up the life of Adam and Eve-- "And the days of Adam after he had fathered Seth were eight hundred years. And he fathered sons and daughters." This does not say when they were born. Many could have been born in the 130 years (Gen. 5:3) before Seth was born.

During their lives, Adam and Eve had a number of male and female children. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote that "The number of Adam's children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters." The Bible does not tell us how many children were born to Adam and Eve. However, considering their long life spans (Adam lived for 930 years-- Gen. 5:5), it would seem reasonable to suggest there were many. Remember that they were commanded to "Be fruitful, and multiply" in Genesis 1:28.

If we now work totally from Scripture, without any personal prejudices or other extra-biblical ideas, then back at the beginning, when there was only the first generation, brothers would have had to have married sisters or there would have been no more generations. We are not told when Cain married or any of the details of other marriages and children, but we can say for certain that some brothers had to marry their sisters at the beginning of human history.

But, as you brought up, it is easy to immediately reject the conclusion that Adam and Eve's sons and daughters married each other by appealing to the law against brother-sister intermarriage. Some say that you cannot marry your relation. Actually, if you don't marry your relation, you don't marry a human. A wife is related to her husband even before they marry because all people are descendants of Adam and Eve-- all are of "one blood." The law forbidding marriage between close relatives was not given until the time of Moses (Lev. 18-20). Provided marriage was one man to one woman for life (based on Gen. 1 and 2), there was no disobedience to God's law originally when close relatives (even brothers and sisters) married each other.

Remember that Abraham married his half-sister (Gen. 20:12). God blessed this union to produce the Hebrew people through Isaac and Jacob. Like I said, it was not until some 400 years later that God gave Moses laws that forbade such marriage.

Today brothers and sisters (and half-brothers and half-sisters, etc.) are not permitted by law to marry because their children have an unacceptably high risk of being deformed. The more closely the parents are related, the more likely it is that any offspring will be deformed.

There is a very sound genetic reason for such laws that is easy to understand. Every person has two sets of genes, there being some 130,000 pairs that specify how a person is put together and functions. Each person inherits one gene of each pair from each parent. Unfortunately, genes today contain many mistakes (because of sin and the Curse), and these mistakes show up in a variety of ways. For instance, some people let their hair grow over their ears to hide the fact that one ear is lower than the other-- or perhaps someone's nose is not quite in the middle of his or her face, or someone's jaw is a little out of shape-- and so on. Let's face it, the main reason we call each other normal is because of our common agreement to do so.

The more distantly related parents are, the more likely it is that they will each have different mistakes in their genes. Children, inheriting one set of genes from each parent, are likely to end up with pairs of genes containing a maximum of one bad gene in each pair. The good gene in a pair tends to override the bad so that a deformity (a serious one, anyway) does not occur. Instead of having totally deformed ears, for instance, a person may only have crooked ones. (Overall, though, the human race is slowly degenerating as mistakes accumulate over generation after generation.)

However, the more closely related two people are, the more likely it is that they will have similar mistakes in their genes, since these have been inherited by the same parents. Therefore, a brother and a sister are likely to have similar mistakes in their genes. A child of a union between such siblings could inherit the same bad gene on the same gene pair from both, resulting in two bad copies of the gene and serious defects.

However, Adam and Eve did not have accumulated genetic mistakes. When the first two people were created, they were physically perfect. Everything God made was "very good" (Gen. 1:31), so their genes were perfect-- no mistakes. But, when sin entered the world (because of Adam-- Gen. 3:6, Rom. 5:12), God cursed the world so that the perfect creation then began to degenerate (that is, suffer death and decay-- Rom. 8:22). Over thousands of years, this degeneration has produced all sorts of genetic mistakes in living things.

Cain was in the first generation of children ever born. He (as well as his brothers and sisters) would have received virtually no imperfect genes from Adam and Eve, since the effects of sin and the Curse would have been minimal to start with (it takes time for these copying errors to accumulate). In that situation, brother and sister could have married with God's approval, without any potential to produce deforming offspring.

By the time of Moses (a few thousand years later), degenerative mistakes would have built up in the human race to such an extent that it was necessary for God to forbid brother-sister (and close-relative) marriage (Lev. 18-20). By this time, though, there were plenty of people on the earth, and there was no reason for close relations to marry.



"Cease ye from [trusting] man" (Isa. 2:22)

Interpretations are exactly that-- interpretations from man. Man is fallible (obviously), and not to be trusted. Preachers use the Word of God not because they feel like it-- it's because, if they don't, then they're just speaking their own mind, and not that of God's.

Jesus says (as you quoted), "the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself."

It's not that you're a "Baptist" or a "Nazarene"...it's that you're a Christian! If you truly love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, then it doesn't matter what "denomination" you are. It matters what is in your heart and that you know Jesus is your Savior.



You ought to drop by the Church at Chapel Hill here in Ohio sometime.

But no, really, it's not hard to observe the decaying focus of churches today. In the letters in Revelation (each one to each church representing a different age of the church-- our age being represented by the Church at Laodicea), Jesus talks about the "lukewarm" attitude of churches today.

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (Rev. 3:15-17)

Similarly, Revelation mentions the "Great Whore":

"For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. (Rev. 19:2)

"What is a whore? A woman who sells herself for money. What is the church known as? The "Bride of Christ". The Great Whore is the church that has sold itself out for worldy things. Those who follow her (those corrupted by "her fornication", and whose blood will be "avenged") will not be taken in the Rapture...only those members of Christ's Church will be. That is, those who love God truly in their hearts, and have accepted Jesus as their Savior.

So don't be discouraged by the explanations of men-- don't become corrupted by the Great Whore's fornication and be slain by her hand. Instead, be encouraged by the Word of God, and surrounded by His grace and love.



We are not to be "yoked together" with unbelievers for obvious reasons-- not the least of which is that it's hard to get along on religious issues and the relationship can bring the believer down (sound familiar? not to be a prude or tell you that this is the reason you're questioning things).

Of course not everyone follows the rules (in fact, we've all broken them at one point or another and come short of the glory of God), but in typical redemptive fashion, God provides a way for salvation anyway. Just accept Jesus as your Savior (if you already haven't) and ask for forgiveness and "Boom!, there you have it.

So Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 7:13 that "And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him."

Notice how it's not "And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her leave him to burn and live her own life in prosperity." No, no, no. God wants you to keep your marriage vows. It's just that now, as a believer, it is your responsibility to continue loving your husband (hopefully you already do ) and show him God's love through you.

Paul explains this in verse 16: "For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband?"

It is important to note what Paul says in verse 15, however: "But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace."

In other words he's saying "Don't get married to an unbeliever, but in case you do, don't abandon the love you have for each other. Instead, show him God's plan of salvation for his life." It's just like Paul continues on in the chapter, basically saying "If you're single, don't seek to be married. And if you're married, don't seek to be single".

Are you starting to understand what I'm getting at? Tell me if I'm not making any sense here.


In any event, I'll be praying for you Deb. I hope you find what answers you're looking for-- and I hope, personally, that you'll once again find them in God.

Best of wishes to you. And you're husband, if he's reading this.

EXACTLY

Deb, may I recommend "the Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins to you.?

There are many arguments theists use such as the "its too complex not to be deliberate" arguement to bamboozle questioning minds.

Richard sets about sorting the silly ideas from the serious ones.

You can have continue to have faith only AFTER you have looked at both sides of the situation clearly and logically.

In my mind God is certainly not necessary and in fact, a ludicrous proposition.

Darwinian evolution is a simple fact of the present here and now... (even if we DID have some magical start point in the past).

Perhaps I might also suggest "Positive Atheism". It's a website that includes (amoung many other things) de-conversion stories that may be of enormous help to you.

Eorl,

Where can I find this "positive atheism" website you speak of? I would be interested in reading.

My husband is picking up the Blind Watchmaker and the Story of the Myth books today.

Thanks again all of you who have posted responses. I'm beginning to feel more comfortable with my questions, and I hope to have this turmoil resolved eventually.

Deb

Try here Deb,

hope it helps


http://www.positiveatheism.org/index.shtml

http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/faq1110i.htm

sorry 'bout the delay, I am in Australia (time zones)

I too have just recently begun questioning my Christian faith, so I know what you are going through. The most important thing is to keep and open mind through the whole thing, and you will eventually find the truth. I have tried to keep my own mind open as well.

Hey Deb: Welcome. Everyone has had their doubts. Go with your gut, how can someone you have known a few years undo everything you have built on your whole life. Don't blame him.

There are a few ideas around that might exlain your questions. I will go into further detail if you like.

1) Says there may well have been others here At the time Adom (see the Greek) was "created".
2) Mutations do not always occur when relatives
Breed (OK FRANK-yes I'm from the South).
(Abraham and Sarah for ex WERE 1/2 bro/sis)

3) If you have not met Frank yet, don't worry, (he's really a sweet guy at least on line).
4) Athesists abound here and will have no part of this. But there is a missing link between N.Man and Chro M. Man on the scene science can't get by either.
5) I can direct you to better JMHO "Christian Forums" than you will find here. Other threads are really good, but only a few are willing to let Christians believe without insults. (They don't do that to the Muslims or Buddahist as much).

But as to question, it's fine.. God is not sitting there saying "I can't believe she said that". Nothing we do suprises Him.

Interested? or not?

Now I'm an atheist myself but I've considered previously the whole issue of Adam and Eve creating the human race. Inbreeding causes genetic issues because it compounds pre-existing genetic flaws. Assuming Adam and Eve were created with perfect Genomes it would be perfectly safe to interbreed for a least a few centuries before radiation exposure would mutate the genes to the point where flaws would exist.

So this really isn't a problem with christianity. Not that there aren't thousands of other ones but this one isn't necessarily an issue.



We can discuss that if you wish. However I'd need to know, who are you referring to by the name "N.Man"?



I'd like to think that my post in this thread was open-minded and accepting of Deb's choice.

Since the religion in question is Christianity...why don't you bring up the main arguments against it? Then, we can discuss them...and all draw up our own conclusions. I am a Christian and I will do my best to hold my end...

I have no objection to posing the various flaws I've seen with christianity. However I thought the point of this thread was to offer some solace and friendly non-pushy advice to Deb on dealing with a crisis of faith. Perhaps another thread would be more appropriate?

I've been trying not to let this (or my statements anyway) become a debate to convert her to one side or another but rather offer her some moral support and advice on where she could go from where she is now. If you want to debate this in another thread, or by email or whatever then consider me at your service. I just don't think that here is appropriate.