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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 10:10 am
If global warming is true, and Gore and others are as convinced of it as they say, I'd say Gore and all of the environmental pundits should be actively campaigning against rebuilding New Orleans. Not only that, he should be advocating the abandonment of any more development along any of the coastal areas, along with preparation to evacuate what is already there. After all, we are very near the "tipping point."
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 10:27 am
Right, because the smartest course of action when there is a problem is to do exactly the opposite of what you were doing before.

Rolling Eyes

Cycloptichorn
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 10:36 am
You forgot that sarcasm needs to be based in logic, or it doesn't work. Exclamation
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 01:03 pm
I do feel that it is economically very risky to build right on coastal areas and other areas that are subject to problems. The mortgages and home owners insurance should reflect those heightened risks. Just as they do on a 100 year flood plane.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 01:10 pm
sumac wrote:
I do feel that it is economically very risky to build right on coastal areas and other areas that are subject to problems. The mortgages and home owners insurance should reflect those heightened risks. Just as they do on a 100 year flood plane.


It would be a whole lot less costly simply to give each New Orleans resident the cash to move and rebuild in a less hazardous area. Of course that would set a really bad precedent and we would have to provide everybody the same benefit who wanted to move off a flood plain or out of a mud slide area or out of a heavily forested canyon or anywhere that mass catastrophes can occur.

I personally favor a new national policy in which the government pulls the plug on mass bail outs and advises people to adequately insure their homes and belongings and they should expect to pay a whole lot more in insurance if they want to live in high risk areas. And, if they choose to live someplace they can't afford to insure, they are on their own for any losses they may incur.

The tax payer should not be required to assume the risk that other people choose to take.

And yes, the federal government should not rebuild a coastal city that lies below sea level and below the surface of an enormous adjacent lake.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 May, 2006 11:34 am
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 May, 2006 06:07 pm
And on a similar but different tact:

Inconvenient Truths for Al Gore
Remember Kyoto?
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 May, 2006 07:05 pm
A marvelous post- Foxfyre-

Now, I will add:

l. Any theory of "global warming" must disconnect "natural causes" of warming from "man made" causes. If natural causes are operating to raise the temperature, the question is, of course, what are they and how much are they contributing to global warming?

Those who would claim that there are, and can be, no natural causes are most unfamiliar with the facts that there has been a great deal of research. See http://www.oldfrazer.lexi.net/publication/books/g-wa

with regard to the sun's action( much more active lately) with regard to the earth's climate

2. Since there were no SUV's during the period known as the Medieval Warm Period( 600 --800 AD) it is undeniable that NATURAL causes were in play when the Climate in the Northern Hemisphere became so warm that the Vikings were able to intensively farm Greenland and Iceland. The English were able to grow grapes and it is recorded that the French complained that the English were cutting into their wine sales.
However, at the end of the Medieval Warm Period, there came a "little Ice Age in which there were times when the Thames was frozen.


All of this climatic change without the benefit of INDUSTRY.

It would seem that if there were "natural" causes which caused both the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age following it, it would impossible to claim that there were no natural causes at work in the present day.

When I can view evidence which says "The rise in temperature recorded by our devices is broken down thusly--1.22234 degrees fahrenheit due to Man made processes and .99932 degrees fahrenheit due to Natural causes, I must maintain my skepticism.

3. China and India were not signatories to the Kyoto Protocol. They were classed as "developing nations" and therefore,exempt from its provisions.
Their pollution alone, if pollution is indeed a large part of the problem, will make any attempts at "Clean-up" moot.

4. On April 28, 1975, thirty one short years ago, Newsweek had a article entitled:

THE COOLING WORLD

"There are ominous signs that the Earth's weather may have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a draastic decline in food production...the present decline has taken the planet about a sixth of the way toward the Ice Age average and we must regard the cooling as a reversion to the "little ice age" conditions that brought bitter winters to much of Europe and Northern America between 1600 and 1900....years in which iceboats sailed the Hudson river almost as far south as New York City"
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 May, 2006 07:16 pm
I must reference one of the USA's outstanding climatologists who, in my opinion, puts the issue to rest:



Climate of Fear
Global-warming alarmists intimidate dissenting scientists into silence.

BY RICHARD LINDZEN
Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

There have been repeated claims that this past year's hurricane activity was another sign of human-induced climate change. Everything from the heat wave in Paris to heavy snows in Buffalo has been blamed on people burning gasoline to fuel their cars, and coal and natural gas to heat, cool and electrify their homes. Yet how can a barely discernible, one-degree increase in the recorded global mean temperature since the late 19th century possibly gain public acceptance as the source of recent weather catastrophes? And how can it translate into unlikely claims about future catastrophes?

The answer has much to do with misunderstanding the science of climate, plus a willingness to debase climate science into a triangle of alarmism. Ambiguous scientific statements about climate are hyped by those with a vested interest in alarm, thus raising the political stakes for policy makers who provide funds for more science research to feed more alarm to increase the political stakes. After all, who puts money into science--whether for AIDS, or space, or climate--where there is nothing really alarming? Indeed, the success of climate alarmism can be counted in the increased federal spending on climate research from a few hundred million dollars pre-1990 to $1.7 billion today. It can also be seen in heightened spending on solar, wind, hydrogen, ethanol and clean coal technologies, as well as on other energy-investment decisions.

But there is a more sinister side to this feeding frenzy. Scientists who dissent from the alarmism have seen their grant funds disappear, their work derided, and themselves libeled as industry stooges, scientific hacks or worse. Consequently, lies about climate change gain credence even when they fly in the face of the science that supposedly is their basis.





To understand the misconceptions perpetuated about climate science and the climate of intimidation, one needs to grasp some of the complex underlying scientific issues. First, let's start where there is agreement. The public, press and policy makers have been repeatedly told that three claims have widespread scientific support: Global temperature has risen about a degree since the late 19th century; levels of CO2 in the atmosphere have increased by about 30% over the same period; and CO2 should contribute to future warming. These claims are true. However, what the public fails to grasp is that the claims neither constitute support for alarm nor establish man's responsibility for the small amount of warming that has occurred. In fact, those who make the most outlandish claims of alarm are actually demonstrating skepticism of the very science they say supports them. It isn't just that the alarmists are trumpeting model results that we know must be wrong. It is that they are trumpeting catastrophes that couldn't happen even if the models were right as justifying costly policies to try to prevent global warming.
If the models are correct, global warming reduces the temperature differences between the poles and the equator. When you have less difference in temperature, you have less excitation of extratropical storms, not more. And, in fact, model runs support this conclusion. Alarmists have drawn some support for increased claims of tropical storminess from a casual claim by Sir John Houghton of the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that a warmer world would have more evaporation, with latent heat providing more energy for disturbances. The problem with this is that the ability of evaporation to drive tropical storms relies not only on temperature but humidity as well, and calls for drier, less humid air. Claims for starkly higher temperatures are based upon there being more humidity, not less--hardly a case for more storminess with global warming.

So how is it that we don't have more scientists speaking up about this junk science? It's my belief that many scientists have been cowed not merely by money but by fear. An example: Earlier this year, Texas Rep. Joe Barton issued letters to paleoclimatologist Michael Mann and some of his co-authors seeking the details behind a taxpayer-funded analysis that claimed the 1990s were likely the warmest decade and 1998 the warmest year in the last millennium. Mr. Barton's concern was based on the fact that the IPCC had singled out Mr. Mann's work as a means to encourage policy makers to take action. And they did so before his work could be replicated and tested--a task made difficult because Mr. Mann, a key IPCC author, had refused to release the details for analysis. The scientific community's defense of Mr. Mann was, nonetheless, immediate and harsh. The president of the National Academy of Sciences--as well as the American Meteorological Society and the American Geophysical Union--formally protested, saying that Rep. Barton's singling out of a scientist's work smacked of intimidation.

All of which starkly contrasts to the silence of the scientific community when anti-alarmists were in the crosshairs of then-Sen. Al Gore. In 1992, he ran two congressional hearings during which he tried to bully dissenting scientists, including myself, into changing our views and supporting his climate alarmism. Nor did the scientific community complain when Mr. Gore, as vice president, tried to enlist Ted Koppel in a witch hunt to discredit anti-alarmist scientists--a request that Mr. Koppel deemed publicly inappropriate. And they were mum when subsequent articles and books by Ross Gelbspan libelously labeled scientists who differed with Mr. Gore as stooges of the fossil-fuel industry.

Sadly, this is only the tip of a non-melting iceberg. In Europe, Henk Tennekes was dismissed as research director of the Royal Dutch Meteorological Society after questioning the scientific underpinnings of global warming. Aksel Winn-Nielsen, former director of the U.N.'s World Meteorological Organization, was tarred by Bert Bolin, first head of the IPCC, as a tool of the coal industry for questioning climate alarmism. Respected Italian professors Alfonso Sutera and Antonio Speranza disappeared from the debate in 1991, apparently losing climate-research funding for raising questions.

And then there are the peculiar standards in place in scientific journals for articles submitted by those who raise questions about accepted climate wisdom. At Science and Nature, such papers are commonly refused without review as being without interest. However, even when such papers are published, standards shift. When I, with some colleagues at NASA, attempted to determine how clouds behave under varying temperatures, we discovered what we called an "Iris Effect," wherein upper-level cirrus clouds contracted with increased temperature, providing a very strong negative climate feedback sufficient to greatly reduce the response to increasing CO2. Normally, criticism of papers appears in the form of letters to the journal to which the original authors can respond immediately. However, in this case (and others) a flurry of hastily prepared papers appeared, claiming errors in our study, with our responses delayed months and longer. The delay permitted our paper to be commonly referred to as "discredited." Indeed, there is a strange reluctance to actually find out how climate really behaves. In 2003, when the draft of the U.S. National Climate Plan urged a high priority for improving our knowledge of climate sensitivity, the National Research Council instead urged support to look at the impacts of the warming--not whether it would actually happen.





Alarm rather than genuine scientific curiosity, it appears, is essential to maintaining funding. And only the most senior scientists today can stand up against this alarmist gale, and defy the iron triangle of climate scientists, advocates and policymakers.
Mr. Lindzen is Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at MIT.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 May, 2006 11:22 pm
Richard Lindzen says it and you believe him? not because he has the science to back him up, but only becasue it suits your political position, and that is insane Lysenkoism. Lindzen is one of those paid for hire scientisits who also said there was no connection between smoking and lung cancer, I am sure you think he was correct there too.

Oddly, one notable fact about the professional climate sceptics is that many of them (Singer, Seitz, Milloy and so on), are also paid advocates for the tobacco industry, there's no evidence to suggest that Lindzen is acting from mercenary motives. It appears that he's just an irresponsible contrarian as a matter of temperament, but well paid for it.

from the links http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/04/open-thread-on-lindzen-op-ed-in-wsj/

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/02/richard-lindzens-hol-testimony/

Quote:
Prof. Richard Lindzen (MIT) is often described as the most respectable of the climate 'sceptics' and is frequently cited in discussions here and elsewhere. Lindzen clearly has many fundamentally important papers under his belt (work on the QBO and basic atmospheric dynamics), and a number of papers that have been much less well received by the community (the 'Iris' effect etc.). Last year, he gave evidence

see http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldselect/ldeconaf/12/5012501.htm

to and answered questions from, a UK House of Lords Committee investigating the economics of climate change, in which he discoursed freely on the science. I'll try here to sort out what he said.

Firstly, it is clear that Lindzen only signs up to the first point of the basic 'consensus' as outlined here previously, that the planet has indeed warmed significantly over the 20th century. While he accepts that CO2 and other greenhouse gases have increased due to human activities, and that this should warm the planet, he does not accept that it is necessarily an important component in the 20th century rise. His preferred option (by process of elimination) appears to be intrinsic variability, but he provides no support for this contention.

In terms of scientific content, his testimony covers a few basic topics: the greenhouse effect, climate sensitivity, aerosol forcing and water vapour feedbacks. We have discussed these topics previously (here, here and here),

see http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=229

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=168

and http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=142

and so my critique of Lindzen's comments will come as no surprise. He intersperses his comments with references to 'alarmism' which I will get to at the end.

Greenhouse Effect
Lindzen accepts the main principle of the greenhouse effect, that increasing greenhouse gases (like CO2) will cause a radiative forcing that, all other things being equal, will cause the surface to warm. He uses an odd measure of its effectiveness though, claiming that a doubling of CO2 will lead to a '2%' increase in the greenhouse effect. How has he defined the greenhouse effect here? Well, a doubling of CO2 is about a 4 W/m2 forcing at the tropopause, which is roughly 2% of the total upward longwave (LW) (~240 W/m2). But does that even make sense as a definition of the greenhouse effect? Not really. On a planet with no greenhouse effect (but similar albedo) the upward LW would also be 240 W/m2, but the absorbed LW in the atmosphere would be zero, so it would make much more sense to define the greenhouse effect as the amount of LW absorbed (~150 W/m2). In which case, doubling of CO2 is initially slightly more*, but as soon as any feedbacks (particularly water vapour or ice albedo changes) kick in, that would increase. Due to the non-linearities in the system, you certainly can't multiply the total greenhouse effect of ~33 C by 2% to get any sensible estimate of the climate sensitivity. So it's not clear what relevance the '2%' number has except to make the human additions to the greenhouse effect seem negligible.

*Update: The initial post had an arithmetic error which I have excised (see comment 76 below).

Climate sensitivity
That leads in to Lindzen's main theme in his evidence - how sensitive climate will be to increasing CO2. He starts off by giving the standard Stefan-Boltzmann no-feedback value for the climate sensitivity: "A doubling of CO2 should lead (if the major greenhouse substances, water vapour and clouds remain fixed), on the basis of straightforward physics, to a globally averaged warming of about 1°C". But he couples this with an extremely misleading statement: "The current increase in forcing relative to the late 19th Century due to man's activities [by which he means greenhouse gases alone] should lead to a warming of about 0.76°C, which is already more than has been observed, but is nonetheless much less than current climate models predict." He repeats this point in the Q&A session as well. However, Lindzen is undoubtedly well aware (having written papers on the subject i.e. Lindzen, GRL, 2002) that lags in the surface temperature due to ocean thermal inertia imply that the transient response is always smaller than the equilibrium response, and that additionally, there are other forcings in the system (specifically land-use change and aerosols) that counteract the forcing from greenhouse gases alone. Since he does not mention these two factors in connection with this statement, a listener could be left with a rather misleading impression. He combines this with a (deliberate?) overstatement (Q130) of the 'consensus' value for the sensitivity as being 4 to 5°C (while the actual consensus is between 1.5 to 4.5°C, best guess around 3°C), misleadingly giving the impression that the mainstream is way off. Similarly, his claim that models overpredict the 20th Century temperature rise is easily shown to be false.

see http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=148

Later he states: "Attempts to assess climate sensitivity by direct observation of cloud processes, and other means, which avoid dependence on models, support the conclusion that the sensitivity is low. More precisely, what is known points to the conclusion that a doubling of CO2 would lead to about 0.5°C warming". One wonders which attempts he is referring to, since it can't be Lorius et al (1991), or Forrest et al (2004) or Andronova and Schlesinger (2002), given that they give ranges that are all significantly higher than this, and indeed, Gregory et al (2002) specifically rules out anything less than 1.6°C. A more recent estimate (Annan and Hargreaves, in press) using multiple lines of observational constraints places the sensitivity well within the value estimated by the models (i.e. around 2 to 4°C).

Actually, I think it is quite easy to rule out a sensitivity as low as 0.5°C by considering the last glacial period about 20,000 years ago. At that time the temperatures were globally around 5 or 6°C colder than the pre-industrial, and the forcings (from ice sheets, vegetation, greenhouse gases and dust) are estimated to be around 6 to 11 W/m2 (a slightly broader range than I previously quoted, updated from some of the PMIP2 results). This implies a sensitivity of between 1.8 and 4°C for a doubling of CO2, with a most likely value of around 3°C. If however, the sensitivity really was as low as 0.5°C, that would imply that either the forcings estimates are 3 to 8 times too low, or the temperature changes are 3 to 8 times too high. Since around 3 W/m2 of the ice age forcing is directly related to greenhouse gases and is well accepted (even by Lindzen), it would require the ice sheets to impart an enormous forcing even to get anywhere near a level consistent with his sensitivity estimate. That does not appear even remotely plasuible. On the other hand, it is unlikely that we have mis-interpreted the proxy evidence for temperature since it comes from very many different sources - snow lines, foraminefera, alkenones, Mg/Ca, pollen records, ice core isotopes, speleothems, faunal assemblages etc. To be sure, some of these data do not completely agree, but none would imply that global temperatures were only 1.5°C cooler (which is the minimum that would be required).

In summary, Lindzen's testimony regarding on climate sensitivity is idiosyncratic at best, and certainly not supported by the literature.

Aerosols
He goes on to describe the attribution study of Stott et al. (2000) who showed that both natural (solar and volcanic) and human-related forcings (GHGs and aerosols) were necessary for a climate model to match the 20th Century temperature changes. This is seen in every model (for instance) and so is not the result of some individual model quirk. Lindzen goes on to claim that uncertainty in the forcings (particular solar and aerosols) imply that the result is somehow 'fixed' to give the observed result. Since we all agree that there are uncertainties in the forcings (which preclude strong statements about climate sensitivity being derived from the 20th century records for instance), is this criticism valid?

In the absence of any other constraints on either of these forcings and if their value was being defined a posteriori then he may have had a point. However, timeseries for solar forcing have been produced by groups unaffiliated with any modelling group, and the modellers have simply taken the values from the literature (Lean et al, 1995;2000;2005, Hoyt and Schatten, 1998) - any 'fudging' to produce the 'correct' answer would be immediately obvious. For aerosols, models are needed to produce the 3-dimensional distribution based on independently-derived emission data sets, but the validation is based not on the transient studies over the last 100 years, but on the satellite data and observations over the last 25 years. Once the various unknown parameters have been constrained as much as possible, they are fixed before the transient runs are started. However, aerosol modelling is indeed fraught with uncertainty, and so no group can claim that their resultant transient forcing is the unique best representation of the value found in the real world. Thus in papers such as Hansen et al (2005), it is clearly stated that the results are merely consistent simulations that match the surface temperature response and ocean heat content changes (as well as many other observations) but that this does not rule out a different combination of climate sensitivity and aerosol forcing having as good a match (see this post for more details). The point that needs to be emphasised is that all of these forcings are all very close to the 'best guesses' of the aerosol and solar communities.

Water Vapour
In the question session (Q143), Lindzen goes into more detail on the reason why he feels that climate sensitivity is so low - specifically, he believes that water vapour feedbacks are not only less positive than models suggest, but actually negative. That is he feels that the amount of longwave aborbtion by water vapour will go down as the planet warms due to increasing GHGs. This implies that actual water vapour amounts will decrease with increasing temperature. On the face of it this is a rather odd claim to make in general - the amount of water vapour that can exist in the atmosphere depends on the Clausius-Clapyeron equation that goes up with temperature. However, it is conceivable that convective processes might cause more extensive drying due to increased areas of subsidence (the basis of the so-called Iris effect), but this applies mainly to the upper troposphere and in the tropics only. As a general effect, reductions in water vapour as temperature increases in general seem rather unlikely.

But we can do better than simply speculating on the issue - we can look at the data and compare that to the models. The best examples to test this idea come from large and relatively rapid changes in the climate such as El Nino events, the eruption of Mt Pinatubo and the trends over the last few decades. In each case (Soden 1997; Soden et al 2002; Soden et al 2005), water vapour increases with warming, and decreases with cooling. There is some uncertainty about exactly how much it increases in the very uppermost troposphere (Misnchwaner and Dessler, 2004), but even those results show a positive feedback. So in summary, the data and the models both agree that not only is the water vapour feedback positive, it is quite close to the value suggested by the models - Lindzen's insistence on the converse (while it has generated increased attention on the subject) seems increasingly perverse.

In general, I think it is incumbent on scientists when speaking to non-specialists to clearly deliniate what one's personal opinion is, and what is generally accepted. That is not to say one should not state one's opinion, but when a panelist specifically asks 'how far your view of the role of water vapour is shared by other scientists?' (Q144), one cannot honestly answer 'That is shared universally' when no other scientist in the field has made a case for a negative water vapour feedback. This is probably the most egregious mis-statement in the whole testimony and is deeply misleading.

Alarmism
Throughout his testimony, Lindzen refers to the global warming 'alarmists'. In my dictionary an 'alarmist' is defined as 'a person who alarms others needlessly'. However, Lindzen appears to define as 'alarmism' anything that links human activities to climate change. For instance, when discussing the statement from the NRC (2001) report (which he co-authored): The changes observed over the last several decades are likely mostly due to human activities, but we cannot rule out that some significant part of these changes is also a reflection of natural variability., he states that "To be sure, this statement is leaning over backwards to encourage the alarmists". To my mind, this statement is actually a fair assessment of both the NRC report, and IPCC report to which it was referring. To claim that this is 'alarmist' is such a gross overuse of the term as to make it useless except as a rhetorical device.

Lindzen has frequently claimed that within the scientific community "alarm is felt to be essential to the maintenance of funding". I have yet to see any empirical evidence of this and a brief perusal of active NSF grants related to climate change reveals a lot of interesting projects but none that jump out as being 'alarmist'. Having sat on panels that decide on funding allocations and as a reviewer of proposals for both US and international agencies, my experience has been that these panels actually do a very good job at deciding which proposals are interesting, tractable and achievable. I have not seen even one example of where the degree of 'alarmism' was ever a criteria in whether funding was given. (NB. I don't regard my own grants (viewable here) as remotely 'alarmist' and I don't have too much trouble getting funding (fingers crossed!)).

Conclusion
In some ways Lindzen's thinking on the climate change issue has not changed much since 1999, as can be seen in an older rebuttal

see http://www.giss.nasa.gov/edu/gwdebate/

of his position by Jim Hansen (scroll down to Table 1). However, he does seem to have become convinced that the 20th Century warming is real. What is interesting about the comparison between then and now, is that Hansen made two appeals to the data gathering community to test a) whether water vapour feedbacks can be observed, and b) whether the ocean heat content is increasing in line with the model predictions. It is quite telling that both of these data analyses have since been made and they confirm Hansen's contentions, not Lindzen's.


Lindzen is wrong and you are too.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 May, 2006 11:36 pm
At least, Lindzen is correct in saying that red beans don't cure cancer, I think :wink:

Your quote, kuvasz, nicely sums up what has to be responded ... and what actually has been done during the last weeks since this article was published.

(The argument that there is a "conspiracy against contrarian scientists" really is laughable and one of the weakiest points any academic can make.)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 02:59 am
okie wrote:
If global warming is true, and Gore and others are as convinced of it as they say, I'd say Gore and all of the environmental pundits should be actively campaigning against rebuilding New Orleans. Not only that, he should be advocating the abandonment of any more development along any of the coastal areas, along with preparation to evacuate what is already there. After all, we are very near the "tipping point."

Why? The Netherlands have found technical fixes for flooding as bad as what happened to New Orleans, flooding much worse than what's predicted as a result of global warming. Does Gore contend in his movie that sealevel rise will vastly exceed the extent projected by the UN's intergovernmental panel on climate change?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 08:37 am
Thomas wrote:
okie wrote:
If global warming is true, and Gore and others are as convinced of it as they say, I'd say Gore and all of the environmental pundits should be actively campaigning against rebuilding New Orleans. Not only that, he should be advocating the abandonment of any more development along any of the coastal areas, along with preparation to evacuate what is already there. After all, we are very near the "tipping point."

Why? The Netherlands have found technical fixes for flooding as bad as what happened to New Orleans, flooding much worse than what's predicted as a result of global warming. Does Gore contend in his movie that sealevel rise will vastly exceed the extent projected by the UN's intergovernmental panel on climate change?


But how many Cat 3 to 5 hurricanes does the Netherlands have to fend off during say a couple of decades? Or other severe storms? Couple that with the projected sea rise and you have a much different situation in New Orleans than what you have in the Netherlands.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 09:08 am
Foxfyre wrote:
But how many Cat 3 to 5 hurricanes does the Netherlands have to fend off during say a couple of decades? Or other severe storms?

It's hard to compare because our categorization is different. But severe "storm floods", as we call them, happen about once every decade along the North Sea coast. (As an aside, in 1963, one of them devastated Hamburg, and Helmut Schmidt's examplary emergency managent as senator of the interior put him on the track to becoming chancellor. Since then, at least three floods happened that were worse, but kept off by greatly heightened levies and dams.)

Add to this that about 1/4 of the Netherlands is below sealevel even without a flood. Further add that the IPCC projects a sea level rise of about 1-2 feet for the next century, which is less than the typical amplitude of tidal waves. Then you will see that New Orleans can manage its flood problems if the Netherlands can.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 09:18 am
Thomas wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
But how many Cat 3 to 5 hurricanes does the Netherlands have to fend off during say a couple of decades? Or other severe storms?

It's hard to compare because our categorization is different. But severe "storm floods", as we call them, happen about once every decade. Add to this that about 1/4 of the Netherlands is below sealevel even without a flood. Further add that the IPCC projects a sea level rise of about 1-2 feet for the next century, which is less than the typical amplitude of tidal waves. Then you will see that New Orleans can manage its flood problems if the Netherlands can.


Much more than 1/4 of New Orleans is below sea level and I am going to guess that no storm experienced by the Netherlands anywhere compares to a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane that can have a 10 to 20 foot or more storm surge with it. High tide or unusually high seas would only exacerbate the probability of catastrophe.

Do you think the tsunami that tore through Indonesia was only 1 to 2 feet? I don't think so, but at least the water could run out to sea again. Once it pours over the levees into New Orleans however, it has to be pumped out

Even the probability of future catastrophe aside, these neighborhood are already wiped out. Why put people back in harms way? Bulldoze it all and make a huge beautiful park there and rebuild on high ground.

Anybody with the certainty that our coastal cities are going to be innundated due to global warming would certainly be irresponsible to suggest American cities should be built below sea level.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 09:19 am
]Whatever Foxfyre may call a "severe storms" - storms announced as "gale warning " by meteroöogists happen a couple of times during the North Sea 'gale session' ( that's Beaufort 11 and above).

The last stormfloods have been (in Germany) in 1962, 1973, 1976, 1981, 1999 and 2000.

From an older article in Spiegel-online (English edition):
Quote:
The Dutch learned their lesson, though, and the country built one of the world's most high-tech water-retention systems ever seen. In January, a delegation from Louisiana visited Dutch province Zeeland to view the region's state-of-the-art storm-surge barriers. Ironically, Dutch representatives visited New Orleans after the 1953 North Sea Flood, and marvelled at the re-enforced levees along the Mississippi River. Inspired, they returned home to build their now-renowned system.

"Both New Orleans and the Netherlands are really quickly sinking," warns Gandolfi. "We are pumping the water out of the soil and this water coming out is also compacting the soil under our cities. We're talking about 2.5 to 3 meters every hundred years. It means that every century the cities go down and down. The risk is becoming larger and larger."



[Half of Holland is below sea-level, Thomas, not only 1/4. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 09:24 am
Quote:
''About the time of Christ, some clever Dutchman figured out that if he built a mound of dirt, and lived on it, maybe his feet would not be always so wet," said Joop Weijers, a senior specialist in flood protection with the Ministry of Transport, Public Works, and Water Management. ''That was the beginning of our history."

full report in the Boston Globe: Holland goes beyond holding back the tide
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 10:52 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Anybody with the certainty that our coastal cities are going to be innundated due to global warming would certainly be irresponsible to suggest American cities should be built below sea level.

On the other hand, the people with that certainty tend to believe that government agencies such as the Army Corps of Engineers can provide successful technical fixes to that problem. And on the historical evidence in European flood areas, they are right. Believe me, Foxfyre, this offends my libertarian prejudices as much as yours. But facts don't go away just because they hurt our ideological biases. It isn't an act of god that the levies of New Orleans could withstand a category 3 storm but not a category 5 storm. It was a public choice. The Netherlands made a different public choice than Louisiana, and as a consequence their citizens suffer a substantially lower risk from floods.

From what I read in Walter's Boston Globe article, the situations are much more comparable than I thought, and thany you think:

Quote:
More than 60 percent of the lands of the Netherlands -- and all its major cities -- either lie below sea level or are so low that the country would suffer regular, and severe, flooding without the dikes, seawalls, and massive storm barriers that hold the North Sea and the rivers at bay.

For centuries, Holland has girded itself with dams and dikes while keeping canal waters, groundwater, and runoff gushing back to the sea with thousands of water pumps. If the pumps ever ceased, the Netherlands would suffer serious flooding in six hours, and much of the country would revert to swamp in six months.

Here is the source again.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 03:10 pm
Thomas wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Anybody with the certainty that our coastal cities are going to be innundated due to global warming would certainly be irresponsible to suggest American cities should be built below sea level.

On the other hand, the people with that certainty tend to believe that government agencies such as the Army Corps of Engineers can provide successful technical fixes to that problem. And on the historical evidence in European flood areas, they are right. Believe me, Foxfyre, this offends my libertarian prejudices as much as yours. But facts don't go away just because they hurt our ideological biases. It isn't an act of god that the levies of New Orleans could withstand a category 3 storm but not a category 5 storm. It was a public choice. The Netherlands made a different public choice than Louisiana, and as a consequence their citizens suffer a substantially lower risk from floods.

From what I read in Walter's Boston Globe article, the situations are much more comparable than I thought, and thany you think:

Quote:
More than 60 percent of the lands of the Netherlands -- and all its major cities -- either lie below sea level or are so low that the country would suffer regular, and severe, flooding without the dikes, seawalls, and massive storm barriers that hold the North Sea and the rivers at bay.

For centuries, Holland has girded itself with dams and dikes while keeping canal waters, groundwater, and runoff gushing back to the sea with thousands of water pumps. If the pumps ever ceased, the Netherlands would suffer serious flooding in six hours, and much of the country would revert to swamp in six months.

Here is the source again.


The only real similarity that I see is that people have to intervene in both to prevent flooding. I learned about the Holland dikes, levees, and canals at a very young age complete with images of the windmills, tulips, and wooden shoes, the bravery of a lad who plugged a hole in the dike, and grew up with stories such as Hans Brinker or the Silver Skates.

In Holland, however, you have 60% or so of an entire country subject to flooding without such intevention. In New Orleans you have approximately half a U.S. city that has already been flooded and destroyed and is going to be fairly frequently susceptible to those 10 to 20 foot storm surges that are common with our quite common Gulf hurricanes. And yes, my libertarian soul is offended by saddling the U.S. tax payer with the cost of returning tens of thousands of people to what I consider to be an unnecessary risk. If you have to bulldoze and rebuild it anyway, why not rebuild on high ground and use the low ground for purposes that do not put human life at risk?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 03:43 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The only real similarity that I see is that people have to intervene in both to prevent flooding. I learned about the Holland dikes, levees, and canals at a very young age complete with images of the windmills, tulips, and wooden shoes, the bravery of a lad who plugged a hole in the dike, and grew up with stories such as Hans Brinker or the Silver Skates.

In Holland, however, you have 60% or so of an entire country subject to flooding without such intevention. In New Orleans you have approximately half a U.S. city that has already been flooded and destroyed and is going to be fairly frequently susceptible to those 10 to 20 foot storm surges that are common with our quite common Gulf hurricanes.


You should have stopped with reading those "fairy tales" but read further, e.g. about The Great Flood of Holland in 1953: 1,835 people were killed, 9% of all Dutch land was under water (three provinces nearly totally) ... ...
0 Replies
 
 

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